"the complete idiot's...

[jrhoto]

Gentlemen open and honest discussion about different methods of beekeeping are good for all beekeepers.There are no perfect bees or no perfect beekeepers and until there is you as a beekeeper must do something to protect the health of your bee colonies.
John


www.poorvalleybeefarm.com

[deknow]

am i to infer that 'not working for you' means that you have not intention of following through with the purchasers and readers of your book?

No, it means that I have to make a living, and sometimes that means that I don't have time to answer questions, or pop in to say "hi".

the first question i asked was very 'specific' it had to do with putting shook out non-regressed bees on hsc. you later answered, "We no longer recommend HSC, as the acceptance time and brood density make it a poor second place to the pf frames."

1. Yes, you first asked a specific question...but it was directed at others.

my question is, has anyone here tried that? if so, what were the results?

You didn't address a question to me specifically until post #19:

no one? dean, can you help me out? (don't have to if you are busy as heck)
you have probably mentored many first-timers. what percentage of packages regress when forced onto the hsc?

...which was the day before you appeared to be frustrated that I wasn't answering, and called the book useless.
...but to answer your question, HSC works most of the time when working with packages. Absconding can be an issue (which is why we recommend in the book using a queen includer)...but absconding can be an issue when installing bees on comb with honey as well. The biggest drawback is the acceptance time. Even with the acceptance time issue, I would recommend HSC over any other method other than the PF frames (unless you are starting with regressed stock).

so, the information i bought in your book is dated, even though book was only published two years ago.

What an absurd observation. Are you going to like the jeans you buy next year better than the jeans you are wearing now? How could you possibly know?
How the heck could I possibly write about (or recommend) a product I had never used? Am I expected to use a time machine when I'm writing? Is it not sufficient to recommend things that I have experience and success with, or am I expected to be omnipotent? Really, get a grip.

i had already scoured your:
"www.TheCompleteIdiotsGuideToBeekeeping.com
This is a portal to all manner of information, updates, clarifications,
videos, and an interactive forum. We hope to see you there!
Books"
but i didn't see anything there about you no longer recommending hsc frames. (not a small detail for a beginner not to be updated on). if i missed it somehow, again my apologies. my intial question was my attempt to get you to clarify here on beesource.

You are correct. We used to maintain a separate website for CIG, but there seemed little point (and it was a big hassle keeping things updated correctly), so now it forwards to BeeUntoOthers.com. At some point during the summer (after "newbee season", I dropped the "advice for new beekeepers" article off the front page, which had specifics about PF vs HSC (I think this was at the same time we combined the websites...which is no easy task). You are right that it should be up there, and I will add it to the to do list.

some of the other 'specifics', branched off of starting out with hsc. for example, getting the colony 'droneright' is recommended in the book, but no mention of how that is done using hsc.

You are correct that we weren't specific about this...but you will also note that we only recommend the HSC for installing the package in the first box, and that when they are ready for a second story, only foundationless and foundation (with the bottom inch or so cut off) are recommended. By following the procedures in the book, you would not ever end up with boxes full of HSC and no place for the bees to raise drones (and a single box full of HSC when building up a new colony works fine). There is no procedure or mention of adding a second box of HSC.

there are yet other 'specifics', but i'm afraid this has turned into a p___ing contest that nobody can win, and i see no future in dragging everyone through that.

Again, you haven't even given me a couple of hours to respond before deciding (and telling everyone) that I'm not going to respond....but for the record, although you wish for more detail in the book, nothing was missing wrt HSC and drones, no procedure in the book would lead to more than one box of HSC.

as far as the publisher's role in what was or was not included, and their choice for the subtitle, maybe that's the way it goes in the publishing world, i have no experience with that. for me, i would like to think i would back out of the deal or publish it some other way, rather than put my name to something i didn't agree with.

Oh please. We are talking about a marketing blurb on the cover of a book (and I already posted that similar things are on the covers or back covers of the first 3 beekeeping books I pulled off my shelf). We are talking about a bit of hyperbole on the outside cover of a mass produced product. You really have specific concerns that you won't name, but you want to harp on the cover blurb?

all of the positives i mentioned about your book are meant sincerely as well. i too am only human, and i gave the best, honest, and objective review i could.

ahhh...errrr, you have mentioned that you didn't find what you wanted on our website. You mentioned some confusion over how to get drones with HSC...both are valid criticisms.
...and you stated that our biases (biases that are clearly stated in the introduction) overrides the usefulness of the book.
But aside from the drone/HSC issue, you have not done what you said you were going to do....to be specific about what you think the problems are. You brought them up, and haven't named them. If you think there are significant things missing (as you said you did), what the heck are they? If the only problem is you didn't see how to get drones with HSC, then I think that is a darn good record for an almost 200 page book that is dense with information.

no ill will meant from this side dean, sorry for getting on your nerves.

I don't think you even understand what the problem is. Commenting on whether someone is posting or not is not (as far as I'm concerned) a problem. Making judgements about why people aren't posting is a sure way towards a misunderstanding. I still don't know what you meant by not giving me "the benefit of the doubt", but I know I did nothing that deserved such a benefit to be revoked. I've done nothing but try to be helpful, and I don't appreciate being treated badly when I can't do so on someone elses (short) timetable.

barry, i've decided to pursue my interest in these matters in the tfb forum, and i ask that you please close this thread.

A couple of more things....
Spend some time searching the archives....all the answers I've given you in this thread are on beesource, and on beemaster already. If you have a lot of questions, you will get better answers to better questions if you spend time searching and reading the archives.....otherwise, what is the point of keeping the archives here? This is how you can spend your own time educating yourself, rather than hoping that someone has the time and knowledge to give you a good answer to a specific question when you ask it. If you aren't willing to spend your own time doing some of this work, it is hard for me to see spending my time answering questions that have already been answered as a good use of my time. I don't say this for my convenience...whatever your goals are, you will reach them faster if you take some time to search and read the archives here when you have a question.

On a related note, you've posted about 500 posts in the last month (I looked it up). Not everyone has the kind of time keep up with all of that...and you have (at least in the case of this thread) been quite impatient in waiting for answers to your questions. ...then you want the mod to close the thread so you can start another one.

You brought this up...you claimed that there are enough important things "missing" to make the cover claim "everything the budding beekeeper needs for a healthy productive hive" objectionable enough to make an issue of it....and although you had a couple of questions about HSC, you have not specified a single thing that you think is missing (I have my own opinions on what would improve things). If you have time to make 15-16 posts a day, you have time to back up your assertions....but you want the thread closed instead.

Do you understand that it is frustrating from this end to try to be helpful, only to have vague criticisms that claim to render our book "useless" leveled at our book, apparently because I don't have time to make 15 posts a day?

What do you think is missing? Do you really think the book is useless?

deknow

[squarepeg]

many thanks dean for your long and thoughtful reply.

i actually agree with you, and i do find myself a little more 'consumed' with all this than i probably should be. it's just beekeeping, and this is just a forum.

the forum format itself has its limitations, and i think the experience you and i are having is in part because of that.

its akward having a conversation this way. after thinking more about it, i believe i did internalize your lack of a response inappropriately, i felt you were ignoring my concerns about your product. my bad.

with respect to placing shook bees directly onto hsc, i haven't been able to find anyone who can share having personal experience with it. i had never heard of it before your book. that you find it works 'most of the time' is interesting. seems like instant regression would be anyone wanting small cell bees would do. maybe it hasn't caught on yet, or folks have moved on the the pf series.

"You are correct that we weren't specific about this...but you will also note that we only recommend the HSC for installing the package in the first box, and that when they are ready for a second story, only foundationless and foundation (with the bottom inch or so cut off) are recommended."

i took a quick look, but didn't find that about the second story. but thanks for addressing it here, and for the other the action items you mentioned. they will be helpful.

"What do you think is missing? Do you really think the book is useless?"

if you really would like to know what else i think is 'missing', or if you are interested in specifics on where i feel the bias in the book 'limits' its usefulness, i can provide that for you.

but, enough time spent on beesource for now.

cheers.

[squarepeg]

"As the broodnest expands, follow the technieques for adding boxes and pyramiding up that we discussed in Chapter 7 [in chapter 7, we only discuss adding boxes with foundation (with a gap at the bottom) or foundationless...not HSC]. Once the HSC has been used by the bees, future bees will accept it freely. Just remember that while HSC will always produce small cell bees, you will never have the density of bees per square inch that is possible with small cell foundation or foundationless comb. "

(this is from deknow's post today in the 'small cell foundation' thread)

thanks dean. i found what you referenced in chapter 7, (except for the part about a gap at the bottom).

i stand corrected with respect to provision for drone comb.

i also need to correct an error in my previous post, i actually did find one person who had on one occasion shook bees onto hsc.

it looks like we're just beating a dead horse though, since the use of hsc as prescribed in the book never really caught on, or has since fell by the wayside.

i only had two other points that i wanted to discuss. one of them is pretty minor, and i'm going to drop it.

the other one is important enough that i would like your feedback on it, but i think we could both use a break for now.

thanks for being a good sport, and thanks for hanging in here. these are important topics for all of us.

[BeeCurious]

the use of hsc as prescribed in the book never really caught on, or has since fell by the wayside.

HSC was used much more several years ago. I believe I bought my first box in 2008. At that time there were not many people interested in it, its use had already tapered off. Buy some and try it out. Carl Simpson would be glad to sell you some. Afterwards you can call North Canton Plastics and complain about the quality...

The molds should have stayed in China. Imo