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Genetic Diversity: What Would Brother Adam Do... Today?

29K views 96 replies 24 participants last post by  squarepeg 
#1 ·
I have been reading about how Brother Adam traveled the world over years, identifying different races of bees, and returning to his home apiary with queens of these different races or strains in order to add them to his breeding program. Then I was also listening to a discussion about the importance of genetic diversity to the strength and vitality of the bees.

And I thought, how would one feasibly go about creating the widest genetic diversity in one's operation today?

To travel around and get permits and to gain access to the so many regions and bring back queens to one place as Brother Adam did would be nearly impossible today. It would certainly be cost prohibitive for most. Plus there's political upheaval and violence in a number of places... And now we have the work of Brother Adam to reference, so there's no need to try and 're-do' what he did.

But there might be value in genetic diversity - to a point. I don't think you'd want to get into such wild variations that you'd be a danger, or major pest to people around you, or to other beekeepers.

So, how would a person create the most genetically diverse - yet commercially viable - stock in a single operation today?

I've read that just a small number of breeders supply most of the world's queens, so what would be the best a regular beekeeper could do?

Adam
 
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#33 ·
Here is my backyard solution.

I hope these thoughts fit in with the OP and subsequent exchange.
I have not read any claim by Brother Adam that he had found 'all' strains of bees worth using in breeding, there is still work to be done in remote places harboring the original range of Apis Meliffera.

Seems that frozen semen would be the easiest way to gather your diversity. Maybe you could find some European breeder or institution with the same goals then work on importing bees or semen with veterinary certifications and assurances. Import them to a government research program for evaluation -that is your foot in the door.

We cannot predict the 'next' disease or pest in our (bee) future. Ushering a wide genetic footprint into the future will be good for the bee's chance of survival.

I'm wintering four hives containing: One queen of Minnesota Hygienic stock (now mixed with local feral bees), one queen of RWeaver's Buckfast stock (it IS a gentle hive), One queen of BeeWeaver's survivor stock, and one Italian looking queen from a local cut out. I've observed good honey production and hygienic behavior from the Minnesota hygienic, Beeweaver and RWeaver Buckfast queens (the feral hive is too new to judge production).

The RWeaver Buckfast line, even if diminished over time as some assert, was bred to have good wing size for good flying ability, good resistance to tracheal mites and brood diseases (and other attributes). Coupled with good honey production and gentleness, the Buckfast genes seem a good bet for some broader diversity crossing with these other lines in Spring. We'll roll the dice in Spring and subsequent Springs, until somebody solves the task of providing a (successful) wider genetic base here in America. :)

BTW, are our bees really doing that much worse than European bees did when varroa arrived there?
 
#34 ·
1. I've been typing on my phone.
2. I've posted a lot about this here and elsewhere.
3. It's hard to even discuss this stuff if it's against the backdrop of VSH when it is so misunderstood. Why would one let a hive die when they could just get VSH stock to start with? Because VSH is just as much of a crutch as any other, and one that virtually no one who buys such stock is equiped to maintain.

Deknow
 
#36 ·
makes sense steven. i guess poor adam is in a bit of a predictament up there in ns.

dean, your book is supposed to arrive here next week, so rest your eyes. :)

(but when you get a better opportunity, i want to know the real reason why you don't like the erikson paper, on the pov thread, thanks)
 
#37 · (Edited)
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

My impression is that simple Mendel's laws is difficult to apply to the bees. From another hand, I hope that classical genetics is still working on bees. Correct me if I am wrong: Individual worker bee could have only pair of any gene - "A" and "a", which gives some combinations in the future generations, AA, Aa and aa. In my understanding, diversity may be at the level of single colony - different bees have different father's genes and the same from mother. Another option - diversity between the colonies. In such case, both mother and father genes may create a numerous combinations. The "trait" is not a single gene, it is a combination of many. Now, are we talking about "diversity" of "traits" or genes? In my opinion, diversity of genes may be realized even in a single colony if free mating is available. Free mating will also increase the diversity of genes between the colonies (plus "wild" genes). May be somebody could explain to me what is (if any) diversity of "traits?" Continue speaking about diversity of genes (not traits), to me, the easiest solution would be to let bees to create their own queens and mate them freely. It would immediately diversify the pool of genes available in (and between) the colony(ies). Introducing the "breeded" queen would shrink the diversity.

This post is not a statement but my thoughts. It would be nice to hear [the opinion of experts] friendly opinions.
 
#40 ·
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

There is a good reason hybrid breeding programs maintain separate lines, and us the cross for "production". Often the inbred lines of bees are very weak from inbreeding.....and subsequent generations are poor...hence maintaininformation the separate lines.

Deknow
 
#41 ·
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

There is a good reason hybrid breeding programs maintain separate lines, and us the cross for "production". Often the inbred lines of bees are very weak from inbreeding.....and subsequent generations are poor...hence maintaininformation the separate lines.Deknow
Yes, I do understand that at the level of many animals but bees. In case of, for instance dogs, we could maintain two pure lines and than cross them. The cross is usually stronger than parenting lines. But in such case we have mother from one pure line and father from another. In case of bees, it is always queen, nobody is talking about drones. Do breeders keep drones pure as well? It seems to me, since drones are haploid, it is easier to keep them pure and transfer "good" genes (hopefully traits) to other bees. In such scenario, we "just" need to bring "pure-blood" colony (pure mother and father) to the apiary to incorporate "good" genes into bees population... instead pollination, insemination by pure drones!
 
#42 ·
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

One thing that seems to be being overlooked is that "genetic diversity" is NOT gained by homogenizing from EXISTING genetic materials. Gene variation is not a static value. It, in fact, often arises from geographic isolation. An isolated population may in fact go through a bottleneck due to natural selection. The gene variation which permitted that selective survival then gives rise to other random variations introduced either by "nature or nature's God" (let's not argue which) that subsequently produces increases or decreases in other survival or performance traits.

Certainly, in any given "isolated biosphere" a concentrated inbreeding produces a preponderance of negative gene expressions that are typically not dominant. Hence the need for using "hybrid vigor" to suppress non-dominate negative gene expressions. However, in the typical bee yard exposed to open mating that level of inbreeding is not common. Instead of seeking to "introduce" genetic diversity from other geographical isolated populations, it seems to me that we should spend more time limiting the homogenization of the total species genetic material by ceasing to do so much large scale "inter-breeding" and instead look more toward more localization of queen production.
 
#45 ·
Sergey, breeders do consider the drones.
Most use "drone colonies" and either flood the area with drones of their choosing, or go to a place that doesn't have other bees (an island, a mountain).
If one is going to introduce genetics, the best way is via drones. Breeder queens are purchased in the summer and grafted so that many of her offspring will overwinter. Since the drones produced by these offspring are not influenced by their mating, their genes are completely of the population the expensive breeder queen came from. This maintains the genetics you have already established while adding the genetics you want to add.
There is some disagreement as to how far from the mating nucs the drone colonies should be....but many just keep them in the same yard.
Bees have a lot _f mechanisms in place to prevent any kind of "pure mating"...not the least of which is the sex determination gene. This is. System that is designed to run "dirty".

Deknow
 
#47 ·
There is some disagreement as to how far from the mating nucs the drone colonies should be....but many just keep them in the same yard.
Bees have a lot _f mechanisms in place to prevent any kind of "pure mating"...not the least of which is the sex determination gene. This is. System that is designed to run "dirty".

Deknow
There is a theory out there that queens don't breed from their own drones because thevirgin can fly faster than the drone and therefore will get mated by drones further from her hives. I had an experience a few years ago that shot down that theory in my own mind. We had a large group of nucs that were woefully short of drones so we placed the nuc yard less than a mile from one of our strongest yards where there was no shortage of drones thinking that it would help greatly with mating. Both yards have had histories of high percentage matings. The end result was a miserable queen catch in the poorer yard and an excellant catch in the better yard. The better yard was probably about a week ahead so the matings were happening on different days.
 
#46 ·
The drone is half of the queen genetically. so if you took a number of drones from the same hive you are pretty much guaranteed to get all the genes from that queen.I am not sure what the number is. I have seen people gather as little as 10 drones from a hive.as many as 100 or more. I woudl tend toward the higher numbers.

The sperm of a drone are clones of it's genetics so that is the point you reach the lowest genetic diversity in a honey bee. This is countered by queens that mate with multiple drones from multiple hives. it is also the point you can consolidate gens intentionally. much attention needs to be paid to drones. Problem is drones don't express a lot of the traits they carry. they don't work. You have to look to the queen and the workers for an idea of what they even carry.
 
#48 ·
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

Ok, first, let's look at hygienic behavior...commonly referred to as hyg. All bees are hygienic to some extent or another. .let's make an analogy to a person running fast. There are lots of factors that can go into running fast...the length of your legs, your muscle strength, training, desire, etc. You can make some assumptions of how fast someone can run, but if it were easy to do so, we would know the winner of every race ahead of time. Being "slow" in such an evaluation does not mean that one is unable to move..."fast" and "slow" are two ends of a continuum, not discrete traits like brown eyes, and can be influenced by a number of genetic factors.

This is what hyg is....it is the ability of the bees to sense and remove a lot of dead brood from underneath the cappings...and to do it quickly. It is not really possible to judge hyg through casual observation (I know Mike P. has said he selects for hygienic behavior by selecting for colonies with not chalk.....this assumes that hygienic behavior is the sole genetic defense against chalk that the bees have...I don't believe this to be true. Mike appears to have selected bees resistant to chalk, or cleaned it out of his equipment over time...his bees may display a high hyg score, but I would not bet on it).`

To evaluate hyg, one must kill a known number of capped brood (usually either a pin prick or liquid nitrogen poured within a ring), and see how fast and how completely the bees remove the dead brood. This is the test for hyg...not if you see brood being uncapped because of varroa, not if you see a clean bottom board.

Hyg was seen as a way to breed bees to be resistant to AFB. The idea was that if the infected brood could be removed quickly and completely, the reproduction cycle of the bacteria could be interrupted. This was found to be true.....but it was a "brink" effect....the bees could resist AHB if they could remove 94% of the dead brood in 24 or 48 hours (I forget which was used), but below this 94%, they were not resistant...they were not almost resistant...they were not kind of resistant. Other methods of breeding bees that are demonstratively resistant to AFB have been done successfully, but I don't think they were ever tested for hyg.

....more later when I have time....

deknow


It was first looked at as a way to combat AFB
 
#49 ·
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

I know Charles Mraz was working on that quite extensively years back. We bought a bunch of queens from him, and it did seem like they showed quite a bit of improvement in disease resistance. My main recollection, though, was that thosebees were M E A N. I have often wondered if the hygienic traits that are beneficial in AFB removal isn't a big reason why we see so much less AFB than we did years ago.
 
#50 ·
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

The hyg and vsh traits (which are behaviors determined by a number of genes) are recessive. In fact, they are not so much "traits" as "hyperexpressions of behaviors" that are obtained through careful selection pressures.

It is worth noting that selecting for survivors is not sufficient selection pressure to select for hyg or vsh. If you want stock that will score high on these tests, you have to perform the tests and select based upon the results.

We often see beekeepers or clubs who want to start a local breeding program buy VSH breeders in an attempt to breed these with whatever is available locally to produce a varroa resistant/tollerant local stock. ...but, these beekeepers and clubs rarely test for hyg, and even more rarely test for VSH (there is not a standard assay for this, and those that are used are cumbersome at best).

If you think the VSH trait is what will give you mite resistance, then you have to actively maintain that trait by testing and selecting for it, not just select for survivors. If you don't, you will lose the very trait that you are counting on for your mite resistance in just a few generations....so much for the local resistant stock you are trying to build.
 
#56 ·
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

...
It is worth noting that selecting for survivors is not sufficient selection pressure to select for hyg or vsh. If you want stock that will score high on these tests, you have to perform the tests and select based upon the results....
If you think the VSH trait is what will give you mite resistance, then you have to actively maintain that trait by testing and selecting for it, not just select for survivors. If you don't, you will lose the very trait that you are counting on for your mite resistance in just a few generations....so much for the local resistant stock you are trying to build.
This only makes sense if you're bent on maintaining VSH. If you're bringing in VSH bees as part of an attempt to establish bees that survive, and that trait helps them survive, then why would you need to test for it? If the VSH trait is what keeps them alive, why would you have to select for it in some other way? How are you going to lose the trait?

Like you, I see myself focusing on "meta traits" as well, so I care far less about the traits that keep them alive than the fact that they are living. So I am wondering if it is wise to get a fairly wide variety of bees from a number of different breeders to provide the widest set of variables to begin with. And from there, select from surviving colonies. I know it's 'heavy handed' but I'm trying to sift out the best way to move forward, while allowing for the fact that there is so much unknown about the how bees survive mites.

Adam
 
#51 ·
Natural selection and artificial selection share the same mechanisms....inbreeding to fix traits, outbreeding to introduce new traits. If have a population of bees that is "fit"....an entire population that you are happy with, then by all means, breed from all the bees...make walk away splits and increase your numbers.

But, what if your population is unfit? What if you are not happy with the performance and you want to "improve" your stock?

You may want to bring some stock in if you think what you have available is total junk...but once you do that, you have to let things settle out. To some extent you want to fix the population with the traits you care about, and discard those that you don't. In my case, I'm not smart enough to know exactly what traits and in what proportions the bees need, so I look at "meta traits"...survival, temperament, production mostly.

What happens when you lose most of your bees to a bad winter? Assuming the survival is, on balance, a genetic factor, you inbreed to some extent with what is left....fixing some of those tratis in the population...something you could never do if you had drones and queens from the colonies that "died of starvation because you didn't feed them over winter". In our case, we see frugal overwintering behavior in our stock....not anything we evaluate separately from survivability.
....more later...
 
#52 ·
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

Dean: I have heard this before and I have trouble accepting the fact that if hygienic resistance is, in fact, a beneficial trait then why wouldn't it also predominate in strong surviving hives? Aren't the same hives that survive the very ones that have shown some sort of propensity to fight off mites either through hygienic traits, or possibly through physically combating mites or even other means such as shortened brood laying seasons. The end result is the same,bees that have learned to tolerate mites to a higher degree.
 
#53 ·
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

Jim, it has to do with the "expense" of the behavior. If you were going to open a restaurant and were hiring kitchen staff....you want to make sure that food does not get contaminated. Staff that washes their hands after they use the bathroom, or when needed is what you want. Staff with OCD who was their hands every 2.5 minutes would also give you the same result...no contamination of food...but would be far less productive.
I don't know what the "traits" are that allow unmanged bees to survive....but I know those are the ones I want to work with.

deknow
 
#59 ·
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

I don't know what the "traits" are that allow unmanged bees to survive....but I know those are the ones I want to work with.
Over the last couple years, we got an interesting lesson regarding 'unmanaged bees'.

Short back story. 2 summers back, when we started with bees, it came up in conversation with a friend, they have a hive in the eaves of the house, its been there 'forever'. We were interested, could be an interesting source of survivor ferals. So, we went and looked, sure enough, bees coming and going in june. We set out a trap, but, didn't get anything in it. Our friends are of the 'live and let live' mindset, so they dont want the bees removed. A couple weeks later, talking to the retired couple across the street from us, apparently they owned the house prior to the current folks, lived in it for 20 years, and had bees in the eaves the whole time, and it was normal for a local keeper to be called in the spring, to retrieve swarms.

Soo, as fall came on, we watched the hive, and it had plenty of activity. Winter rolled around, activity died off as expected. In the early spring, we started checking regularily, on days when our hive beside the house was flying, to see about activity in the eaves of the old house. None. No bees at the entrance, no dead bees on the ground, not a sign of any bees. By mid spring, our hives were flying every day, and when we checked the old house, again, no activity at all. About the time we were starting to watch our hives for swarm preps, we got a call from the folks, the bees have 'woke up for the summer', apparently there was suddenly a lot of activity at the entrance.

The lesson learned from this. Homeowners and prior owners were happy to give us a 30 year history of bees in that eave, they honestly believed the bees were there the whole time. But, watching, and knowing a bit of what we are watching for, we realized, that eave did NOT support a colony thru the winter at all, but, one of the first swarms of the spring happily moved in.

The lesson from this, even when the property owners are absolutely positive that the wild bees have been in that spot forever, doesn't actually make it so, and, they may not be feral survivors at all. For the better part of a year, we believed that colony was a long time survivor, and, we had contemplated numerous ways to try capture some of that line into our own bees. But it was all for naught, watching them carefully over a winter / spring, showed us, it's not a long surviving colony at all, it's a 'happy home' for an early swarm.
 
#54 ·
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

Dean, What are your plans to re-start? have you decided on any queen sources as of yet? You are going to breed, correct! Not sure what unmanaged bees are.

Jim, are you breeding at all, or purchasing stock from your breeder? I have seen controlled breeding work in a operation of 600 to 800, by having replacement queens and nucs ready for production colonies, replacing losses, etc, but have not heard of or seen that in larger operations.

I am not sure about the hyg hype either. I have never tested or looked. Just don't have the time. Isnt MP doing just that, or is he testing?
 
#55 ·
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

Jim, are you breeding at all, or purchasing stock from your breeder? I have seen controlled breeding work in a operation of 600 to 800, by having replacement queens and nucs ready for production colonies, replacing losses, etc, but have not heard of or seen that in larger operations.
We have brought in a few breeders (including some Hygenic) in the past and will do so in the future but mostly just select from our best hives. I sure don't consider myself a true bee breeder but we are operating around 5,000 hives so we do have a lot of diversity to choose from.
 
#57 ·
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

Because only high levels of hygienic behavior are effective, and the behaviors are the expressions of a number of separate (mostly recessive) genes. Such high levels are extremely unlikely to occur by chance, and I've not heard of anyone who has found or maintained these traits without specific selection for them.
 
#64 ·
Re: Here is my backyard solution.

Keep in mind there is a distinction between a queen breeder and a queen rearer or producer as I like to call it. A breeder has a lot of very weak colonies that are specialized in only one or two very enhanced traits. these various hives should then be crossed so that you end up with one bee with all the good. That is the theory anyway but it does not work that simply. A breeder has a lot of bees that woudl be nowhere near suitable for keeping. Once that do have that exceptional bee they then produce a hand full maybe only a couple thousand queens from it. and those are sent to producers. at relatively high cost. to then produce the tens of thousands of queens that will be supplied to beekeepers.

So what can the beekeeper do to help increase the effect of breeding. Allow your hives to produce drones. this is the only way a queen can expend her genetics beyond her own colony. If you keep that queen and practice drone production methods that discourage the production of drones. you are limiting the impact that queen has on the environment.

I believe there is far to much bee management that is focused on what you will get here and now. this year. and no concern for what will happen tomorrow.and then when tomorrow shows up and it does not look so good we wonder what is wrong with the bee.
 
#65 ·
Here is another factor concerning drones. since they are fully half of the equation they are a significant consideration. In bee breeding we have almsot complete control of the queen. we can not only observe her traits through her daughters and by looking at her.WE know where she is and what she is doing.so much so that almost every decisions in managing a hive is connected to her in some way.

Instrumental Insemination can give us that same control over the drone. But not without obsticals. and big ones.

Susan Colby who has a dual appointment with both UC Davis (2 hours drive from me) and WSU. I don't' know about you but being employed by two Universities at once is saying something. Has a course in II. The problems is I think it is restricted to researchers, laboratory technicians and breeders. So that means I have to become a breeder before I even qualify. I am trying to get in contact with Susan because I hope to take this course next spring.

Now I personally am the sole support of three children. my wife and three grandchildren.take a thousand dollars or more to go take a class on how to inject semen in a bee is a pretty big decision.

On top of that you can only take the course if you supply your own instrument. and so far that is no small task either. I have found far more information on how to make them yourself than I have on buying one.and the only place I found to buy them you simply send an e-mail about what you want. and hope for the best. There are some simplified methods that are being developed or have been developed for those that are not scientists.

But II is the surest way to be able to breed good hives with good hives. it is just not their for there for most beekeepers yet.

I was thinking the other day about how it might work that you could ship a queen and a bunch of drones that you desired her to be bred to to a lab to have them inseminated. It woudl make for an expensive queen but you would be getting a known cross. Then I came across issue with producing good drones. Basically you have to do it right. And it is not necessarily easy. IN fact producing drones can become the most difficult part of queen breeding and II.
 
#66 ·
Sorry, there is no way to describe what has just been posted other than rather ignorant misinformation being presented as fact by the uninformed.

Inbred lines are used for hybrid crosses (like the starline and midnight programs...I posted a video of Randy Quinn talking about these programs a few days ago). I don't know of anyone doing this kind of hybrid breeding today (doesn't mean it isn't happening, I just don't know about it if it is). This is _one_ way to approach breeding, and is not what is commonly practiced today. Not having inbred bees that need to be constantly propped up with frames of food and capped brood does not mean you are not a breeder.

II has it's uses (research, breeding programs), but it is not how one produces a good quality queen for production. II queens are generally used to raise production (open mated) queens. No one uses II queens for production...they are too expensive, and they do not perform as well as open mated queens.

Much of beekeeping technology and practice is geared towards preventing the bees from raising drones...during most of the active season, it isn't difficult to produce drones, and during the rest of the season, it is easy to keep a virgin caged for a month or 6 weeks and then release her...she will only lay drones.

deknow
 
#93 ·
Inbred lines are used for hybrid crosses (like the starline and midnight programs...I posted a video of Randy Quinn talking about these programs a few days ago). I don't know of anyone doing this kind of hybrid breeding today (doesn't mean it isn't happening, I just don't know about it if it is). This is _one_ way to approach breeding, and is not what is commonly practiced today. Not having inbred bees that need to be constantly propped up with frames of food and capped brood does not mean you are not a breeder. deknow
Yes I did watch the video. I almost have the impression I was seeing the second half of a two part video though (video of Randy) . The other one I could not either see well enough or hear well enough to make anything out. So no I don't think that information came through.


II has it's uses (research, breeding programs), but it is not how one produces a good quality queen for production. II queens are generally used to raise production (open mated) queens. No one uses II queens for production...they are too expensive, and they do not perform as well as open mated queens. deknow
Well this begs to differ with you on the quality issue. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1051/apido:2007029?LI=true

The abstract of the above study is this.
Instrumental insemination, a reliable method to control honey bee mating, is an essential tool for research and stock improvement. A review of studies compare colony performance of instrumentally inseminated queens, IIQs, and naturally mated queens, NMQs. Factors affecting queen performance are also reviewed. The collective results of the data demonstrate that the different methodologies used, in the treatment of queens, has a significant affect on performance rather than the insemination procedure. Beekeeping practices can optimize or inhibit performance. The competitive performance of IIQs is demonstrated when queens are given proper care. The advantage of selection and a known semen dosage can result in higher performance levels of IIQs.
 
#67 ·
Deknow has some very good points. Diversity in a population is a good thing, not because it is inherently good, but because it offers many opportunities. When giving a talk, I sometimes joke that I collect bees like others collect stamps, coins, cars or whatever it is you may like to collect. Different stocks or lineages have different characteristics to contribute to a population, we just do not know when they will be of the most benefit or value to the population. I like Tom Seeley’s explanation for the feral population he has studied for the past 30 some years. I am paraphrasing, but it was along the lines that individual colonies will come and go, but the population has remained relatively stable, even with the introduction of Varroa mites. Apiaries may be viewed in a similar way, individual colonies may come and go over time, but the apiary may live on.

Another point Deknow mentioned, and I think we may have discussed this in a previous post, is knowing what is best for the bees, VSH and hygienic behavior being two that were mentioned. Both behaviors occur at very low frequencies in an unselected population. Perhaps there is a reason for this. Both behaviors are energetically expensive. In other words, they are not behaviors that would naturally increase in frequency. In the broad scheme of things, they are more costly than they are worth, even in populations with heavy Varroa infestations.

Joe
 
#70 ·
In the broad scheme of things, they are more costly than they are worth, even in populations with heavy Varroa infestations.
Joe
This is what I am having trouble understanding. Why isnt the "cost" of removing diseased or mite infected larvae/pupae a net positive on a hive when compared to a hive that is allowing them to mature or in the case of AFB, remain in the cell and infect other larvae. Arent you suggesting that an infected bee is better than no bee?
 
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