solid vs screen bottom

[muddymom]

Oh boy , many sources I studied say a screen bottom allows for ventilation which in turn prevents water condensation and wet bees.
now I am reading that closed bottoms allow for higher humidity inside the hive,resulting in a decrease in Varroa mites and happier bees since they dont have to work as hard transporting water.
our humidity in this area usually stays arround 70-80% year round(its currently 40 degress temp and 72% humidity)with even higher ranges durring parts of the summer.
Wouldn't the humidity be excessive with closed bottom?
Is anyone working with the extended bottom with shavings? If so how is it coming? Also wouldnt it result in the larvae of the SHB staying inside the hive base to hatch.
In trying to do right for my bee companions before introducing them to their new home I find myself asking more questions and certainly expanding my horizons

[beemandan]

Find some local...long term, successful beekeepers and ask what they use.
My bet is the answer will be solid bottoms.

[AmericasBeekeeper]

Bees only need 50 percent humidity so you are way over that.
The reason screened bottom boards were introduced is to reduce Varroa load as the mites drop through the screen and do not reattach if there is a 3/4 inch gap. They are that lazy.
Shavings on the bottom are the worst place as SHB, wax moths and all the hive trash accumulate there into a breeding festering mess.

[jmgi]

If you are concerned about varroa population in your hives, you would do better to use solid bottoms, keeps higher humidity and higher temperature during the breeding season which is harder on varroa, the screened bottom was just a knee jerk reaction to eliminating as many mites in the hive as possible by way of them falling through the screen and not being able to climb back up. Before varroa a screened bottom was unheard of. John

[Rader Sidetrack]

What Muddymom didn't say specifically above (it was on another thread) is that she is planning on using Top Bar Hives, so consider that in your responses. EDIT:Oops, I just noticed this is posted in the Top Bar forum, but note that sometimes members don't consider the particular forum when composing their reply.

If you do choose to put in screened bottoms in your TBHs, make sure you have a way to close off the screen bottom with a solid board at times. There are quite a few threads on Beesource where new beeks have experienced absconding with newly installed packages in open screened bottom TBHs. Close off the bottoms at least until the bees have established themselves and built a significant amount of comb.

IMHO , new beeks, especially those that want to be "chemical free" would do well to study all pages of Michael Bush's site. Here is some info on the screen bottom issue.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeswinter.htm

[Ted adams]

Find some local...long term, successful beekeepers and ask what they use.
My bet is the answer will be solid bottoms.

Dan, as I respect your opinion n knowledge , Do you suggest solid bottom boards in our Ga locations?

[beemandan]

Dan, as I respect your opinion n knowledge , Do you suggest solid bottom boards in our Ga locations?

Kind of you to say Ted. I prefer solid bottoms. The initial studies suggested slightly lower (around 15%) mite populations when using screened bottoms. Other studies conducted since have had mixed results. To my thinking any improvement is inconsequential. On the other hand, from personal observation, I've seen small have beetles come and go through screened bottoms...evading the bees' efforts to sequester them. Add to that any small hive beetle larvae that fall from the comb are sure to end up in the soil beneath...which is exactly where they want to be. On a solid bottom they must run the gauntlet of bees to pass out the entrance and get to the soil.
So...to make a long story short...I don't think screened bottoms make a positive difference.

[Che Guebuddha]

Instead of spending money on unsustainable materials why not simply go with a Top Entrance like M. Bush does. I will do the same on my new hives since I too live in an area of high humidity.

[Steven Ogborn]

I only theorize (not enough to prove it) that my screened bottoms help with reducing swarm urges. My bigger hives started acting
like they were getting antsy to swarm until I dropped all the bottoms on the populus hives. I noticed a reduced amount of queen cups
and incoming honey that was starting to build up in the broodnest got moved to the back of the hive. I think the increased ventilation
reduced their perception of crowding. This is the first season I was able to do this. It's not a pattern yet. But, for me, Saint Patrick's
day this coming spring will be spent dropping the bottoms on several hives. I hope.

[Seymore]

Find some local...long term, successful beekeepers and ask what they use.

Only prob there, BMD, is long-term in these hyar parts often equates to "set in their ways."

[beemandan]

How do you choose which gadgets sold by the bee supply folks that you are going to add to your hive?
You don’t trust the old timer, local beekeepers opinions. You ask on Beesource and get conflicting opinions.

As far as screened bottoms. They were introduced…around ten or twelve years ago. UGA/Clemson U conducted some joint studies that suggested that a screened bottom board could reduce varroa populations by as much as 15%. Various studies since have had mixed results. I believe it was Cornell that decided that they made no difference.

Regarding improved ventilation. I am not aware of any studies that indicate that the increase in ventilation improves the well being of a bee colony. Logic would tell me that if they increase summertime ventilation….they increase winter ventilation. Opinions are polarized. They reduce winter condensation. They add unnecessary chill to the bee cluster. Which will you buy into….and why?

I’ve still got about fifty of them. I recently sold about a hundred for half of what they cost…..and I say good riddance. I tried them. I don’t like ‘em. But if you figure I’m an old guy….stuck in my ways….so be it..

[Seymore]

But if you figure I’m an old guy….stuck in my ways….so be it..

BMD, My opinion of someone set in their ways is one who rejects new ideas without trying new ideas. (And I really don't know how old you are; didn't read your bio; just a general comment - sorry you thought I was being personal.)

[Solomon Parker]

Muddymom, screened bottoms are not necessary, nor do I recommend them. It is as jmgi said in post #4.

[beemandan]

BMD, (And I really don't know how old you are; didn't read your bio; just a general comment - sorry you thought I was being personal.)

I didn't take it personally. There isn't anything on these boards that gets me upset. Most days I think I'm thirty but the calendar says I'm sixty one. I know, in the long haul, the calendar will prevail....but for the moment I still think I'm a kid.
It is a curiosity to me how, if you don't trust the old local beekeeping geezers for good advice...who can you trust? Many of the new beekeepers will tell you what they think...with absolute conviction but all too often they are expressing uninformed opinions. And on Beesource...the opinions will run the full gamut. So, where does one go for good advice?
I tried screened bottom boards...with a vengence and didn't like them. But that doesn't mean you won't love 'em.
Good luck.

[xcugat]

I do not think the SBB is worth it--see my big post about this I made I while back:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...e-not-worth-it

[Seymore]

Bmd, exactly. Who do you trust? When I try to determine my own path ... I ask questions (lots!), I listen, observe, read and read and read, and then I take the route that seems best based on all the info I've gathered.

Btw, also please note my comment was not a universal dismissal of "old-timers." I did say "often equates" to a mindset. If I dismissed all "old-timers" just because they were an "old-timer," I would be no better than those who are closed-minded. Oh yeah, I know this Beek who must be all of 45. He is one of the most closed-minded people I know!

The hardest part (well, certainly way up there!) of beekeeping IS knowing who to trust. If I listened to what literally EVERYONE around here told me to do, I'd be in 10-frame deep equipment. I'm short, female, lousy upper body strength. I wouldn't have had a chance with that equipment.

I just know this... I try to stack the odds in my favor. Sometimes it pays off. Sometimes it doesn't.

Glad I didn't offend.

[Solomon Parker]

I'm short, female, lousy upper body strength. I wouldn't have had a chance with that equipment.

That sounds like that 'old-timer' mindset you were talking about. I would give you more credit.

[Gypsi]

I had both screened bottom and solid bottom hives this year, and the only solid one I have now has a 2" hole drilled in it with #8 hardware cloth stapled over it inside and out.

I keep black rubber pondliner on the ground under my hives, so no grass grows up, and it's pretty toasty in summer for a beetle larva to be trying to burrow through.

I saw less bearding and better temperament in the heat on my screened bottoms. I can put in a white sticky board in all but one (it's sticky tray is in the garage - so it is a guinea pig this winter). I built my own, It was a pain, but a worthwhile investment. Next year I'll find a place to buy them reasonably. Screens. With white trays so I can see what falls out and sticks in my cooking oil.

Gypsi

[Seymore]

That sounds like that 'old-timer' mindset you were talking about. I would give you more credit.

Oh really? Do you have to hit your thumb with a hammer to know it would hurt? ME lift 60, 70, 90 pounds? I HAVE hoisted a 40# bag of dog food ... But not very gracefully! I can have a chance with a full medium super. That has proved to be my limit. I do pull the odd frame here and there when its really heavy. I think some old-timer suggested that to me.

[cerezha]

... someone set in their ways is one who rejects new ideas without trying new ideas....

Unfortunately, I do find it is true between many beekeepers. No personal offense there! I find that communication with such individuals is difficult - they are nice to you only if you agree with all their teaching/mentoring. Once you challenge them with simple question "why?" many of them got offended and the best answer would be "because!" On the positive side, I have to admit that as long as you behave as a 1st year student, many of them would be happy to share their expertise, teach you... I am very grateful for all teachings beekeepers provided to me.

As for screened bottom - I decided on it against many experts opinions and very happy with my decision. I am using a sandwich: screen-space-solid board. Space used for sticky board or oil pan if necessary. Space may be closed by solid board (never happened). I am using windows aluminum screen, which has probably smaller mesh than #8 recommended. It means, that nothing could get into the hive from outside. I am not sure about SHB. Never saw one. I feel that mesh is just about the size of SHB, it may be good or not. But, it is for sure that SHB larvae could escape through the screen (for good or not). When I had some wax moth problem, oil tay solved it very quickly. I found that thick layer of oil on the sticky board works very well on wax moth also.

In my opinion, the major communication problem between bee-people is that commercial beekeepers sometime are trying to impose their experience on small-scale hobbyists. It needs to be understood that hobby is not a manufacturing process. Please, excuse me for my statement - it has no intention to offend anybody; I just present my position on this matter. Sergey