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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,459

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    JSL asked:

    Does anyone still keep bees the way they did 60 years ago?

    Yes, Same equipment, same stools, same methods(with some modifications), but different truck, and bee blower 50 years ago.. We are not sure everything is the best possible, but have not seen any positive effect in those hives that pollen substitute was added.it is possible we have mis-observed any benefits.

    We are unique in that we do not migrate, and have considerable area of untilable land, being in the vicinity of terminal moraines(edge of glacial extant).

    Crazy Roland

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    323

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Mbeck,

    I agree, balance is the key. I was thinking about Jim’s question yesterday about my opinion on DeGroot’s amino acid ratios. We analyze composite pollen samples to pull the numbers we attempt to target. Interestingly, the distribution of amino acids in composite samples is usually pretty close to the ratios DeGroot recommended.

    I think that is very probable that bees would benefit from other nutrients in monoculture environments. Although it can be challenging to pinpoint which one’s.

    Squarepeg,

    I am not certain there is an advantage to feeding patties if you have an abundance of pollen. Perhaps it all depends on what you want from your bees. I think the studies have shown feeding can have a stimulatory effect. Again, whether that is good or bad, or even necessary depends on what you need for your situation. Your last question I am speculating on… I would think a good supplement would only help bees in terms of providing proper nutrition to help deal with pests and pathogens, but the catch may be increased brood production and how it relates to Varroa levels.

    Roland,

    I envy you! Sometimes I think we as beekeepers have made our lives and our bee’s lives more difficult by all of the changes we have implemented over the years. I thoroughly enjoy being out in the field working bees and often wonder what it would be like to go back in time. The closest I came to such an opportunity was working bees Hawaii, pre Varroa and hive beetles. It was like the days before we had Varroa here, but just a little better!

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Schoolcraft Mi.
    Posts
    53

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    How many are adding probiotics to their
    Sub

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,459

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Joe - don't envy, the old ways are alot more work.

    On second thought, I believe I need to set up some true tests and accurately measure the effect of adding pollen supplement. We may indeed be missing out on benefits.

    crazy Roland

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Quote Originally Posted by sjvbee View Post
    How many are adding probiotics to their
    Sub
    sjvbee, We do have a micro-flora builder in our sub which feeds the gut flora.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  6. #46
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Knox Co, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    678

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Joe, Keith or anyone else,

    What impact does palatability play into pollen sub mix? Might it be that while a higher fat/oil content is not necessarily needed by the bees. But, they will eat more of one that does have a higher oil content?

    Tom

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    323

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Tom,

    That is my dilemma. I see what I think is an adequate oil content, but also see the opportunity to improve palatability of the patty. Oil helps to make for a softer more pliable patty, which I think certainly improves consumption. For me, it becomes a bit more murky when trying to determine the upper limit of oil in a patty. We know oil improves consumption and quality to a point, but so does sugar. There is only 100 percent of a patty to work with. Getting most of the ingredients roughed in is fairly manageable, but it’s the last few percentage points that seem to take the most work. I am not certain there is a one size fits all, so it becomes, what size fits most.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Quote Originally Posted by TWall View Post
    Might it be that while a higher fat/oil content is not necessarily needed by the bees.
    TWall, "Might" as you say a higher fat content is not necessarily needed, what percent is needed ?
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  9. #49
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Knox Co, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    678

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Keith,

    I don't know.

    Tom

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    TWall, this maybe helpfull.
    A reminder about the addition of oils in a pollen substitute.

    http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documen...Article10.html
    3. Other Nutrition

    3.1. Sterols and Lipids

    A sterol, 24-methylene cholesterol, is common in pollen and is the major sterol source for honey bees. Nearly all insects need to obtain sterol from their diet because of their inability to synthesize them directly. Sterol is the precursor for important hormones such as molting hormone, which regulates growth because it is required at the time of each molt. It is not clear what other lipids are required by honey bees, but most likely normal consumption of pollen provides for all the lipid requirements. Pollen with low fat content is less likely to be consumed by honey bees, but can be made more attractive to bees with the addition of lipids. The total lipid concentration within a pollen supplement is recommended to be 5%–8%.
    Last edited by Keith Jarrett; 11-26-2012 at 07:03 PM. Reason: adding
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Leominster, MA USA
    Posts
    163

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    From what I know about 24-methylene cholesterol, it is either produced or greatly enhanced through the pollen fermentation process within the first hour or so after the bee collects and inoculates the pollen with honey stomach fluids. The brood cannot develop without the 24-meth c.

    It is my understanding that the bees cannot get the 24-methylene cholesterol anywhere else in their diet so need at least some real pollen. The nurse bees can pull nutrients from their bodies for 2-3 brood cycles but in the absence of at least some real pollen brood cannot be raised after these 2-3 generations.

    Ramona

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    TWall, this maybe helpfull.
    A reminder about the addition of oils in a pollen substitute.

    http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documen...Article10.html
    3. Other Nutrition

    3.1. Sterols and Lipids

    A sterol, 24-methylene cholesterol, is common in pollen and is the major sterol source for honey bees. Nearly all insects need to obtain sterol from their diet because of their inability to synthesize them directly. Sterol is the precursor for important hormones such as molting hormone, which regulates growth because it is required at the time of each molt. It is not clear what other lipids are required by honey bees, but most likely normal consumption of pollen provides for all the lipid requirements. Pollen with low fat content is less likely to be consumed by honey bees, but can be made more attractive to bees with the addition of lipids. The total lipid concentration within a pollen supplement is recommended to be 5%–8%.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Ramona, we do know that natural pollen starts to break down after the first hour without lactic acid prosses, but, do we know that pollen substitutes act in the same way? Some have told me when the bees eat the sub the fermention process with the somach fluids will happen at that time. There are many conflicting veiws among the research commuity. Which came first the chicken or the egg.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Leominster, MA USA
    Posts
    163

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Who told you these things and on what are they basing their comments?


    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Ramona, we do know that natural pollen starts to break down after the first hour without lactic acid prosses, but, do we know that pollen substitutes act in the same way? Some have told me when the bees eat the sub the fermention process with the somach fluids will happen at that time. There are many conflicting veiws among the research commuity. Which came first the chicken or the egg.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Who did I hear this info from.... If I mention there names I would image 90% of the board would recognize.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Leominster, MA USA
    Posts
    163

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    .....?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Who did I hear this info from.... If I mention there names I would image 90% of the board would recognize.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    VENTURA, California, USA
    Posts
    3,637

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    11/27/2012

    A sterol, 24-methylene cholesterol, one of my favorites.
    It has a nice ring to it and it goes with bacon quite well!
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    323

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Ramona,

    I do not have a clear picture of 24-methylene cholesterol, or cholesterol usage in bees. The literature offers conflicting views on whether or not bees can synthesize cholesterol from plant based sterols. Your statement about brood needing cholesterol for development is in line with other animal species as most embryonic stages are unable to synthesize cholesterol, but quickly gain the ability after birth.

    It used to be stated that plants did not produce cholesterol, but some newer research suggests that they do, just in very small amounts.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Leominster, MA USA
    Posts
    163

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Don't have access to my bee/microbe files today but if I recall correctly the 24-methylene cholesterol is connected to a specific fungus that is associated with pollen.

    Ramona

    QUOTE=JSL;871647]Ramona,

    I do not have a clear picture of 24-methylene cholesterol, or cholesterol usage in bees. The literature offers conflicting views on whether or not bees can synthesize cholesterol from plant based sterols. Your statement about brood needing cholesterol for development is in line with other animal species as most embryonic stages are unable to synthesize cholesterol, but quickly gain the ability after birth.

    It used to be stated that plants did not produce cholesterol, but some newer research suggests that they do, just in very small amounts.

    Joe[/QUOTE]

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,038

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    i agree that diet and nutrition is one of the most fundamental aspects of bee husbandry.

    so much so, that i decided this year to forsake the honey crop, by only taking what i could, so as to not have to feed any syrup.

    i did have two occasions where short-term emergency feeding was necessary.

    last fall, i fed syrup after late a harvest. and i must admit, last year's fall colonies had larger clusters and heavier stores.

    i.e. this year's clusters are much smaller, and the stores are lighter.

    i wonder if letting the bees determine cluster strength based on the natural flow results in a more optimal cluster size?

    i also wonder if not having the extra stores in late winter will cause a smaller build-up in advance of our main flow next spring?

    it might make sense from a production standpoint, to supplement in the fall, just after the natural forage plays out. maybe that would leave more stores for spring build up.

    it's a no brainer for the commercial operation. that's what you want.

    does it make sense for someone not necessarily trying to max out #'s of honey per hive? or extra bees for pollination or sale?
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    fresno CA USA
    Posts
    105

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    If mites were to go away tomorrow nutrition is still the biggest challenge we have in central CA. Should have started feeding a protein supplement in early june, by the time I saw that they were stressed it was month to late. Some times it take a month or more to get to all the yards. I feed 1.5 lbs on the top super if the bees don't eat it it's not worth feeding. ( you can take that either way) bad idea to break cluster in the winter IMO.P1000364.jpgP1000361.jpgIMG_0597.jpgIMG_0596.jpg
    This is my mix
    25 gal syrup
    80 lbs Ladshaw bee feed
    50 lbs toasted soy flour (ADM)
    50 lbs nutritional yeast (LaSaf)
    25 lbs sugar
    1 lbs ladshaw v&m mix
    100 g enzyme mix (Canadian Bio)
    100 g probiotic mix
    1 gal corn oil
    1 gal canola oil
    1 gal coconut oil
    6 oz lemongrass (lebermuth)
    6 oz spearmint "
    6 oz wintergreen "
    mix subject to change

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