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Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

37K views 75 replies 19 participants last post by  davidsbees 
#1 ·
Outdoor bee work is winding down, so now it is time to get back to pollen sub...

In talking with beekeepers, there seems to be a couple of primary parameters that are important. I am not sure how to rank the following, but price, consumption rate, and protein content seem to be towards the top of the list, so that is what I am focusing on. Below are a couple of formulations I have been working with. They are pretty similar, but one has a higher protein content than the other. Sugar is a great feeding stimulant, so the formula with the lower protein content has more sugar. It all depends on what is more important to the bees and the beekeeper at the time.

I would appreciate any input, and if you like, mix some up and let me know what you think?

Ingredient
Sugar 33.0 pounds
Water 27.0 pounds
Brewers Yeast 18.0 pounds
Soy Flour 18.0 pounds
Corn Oil 2.5 pounds
Latshaw Pre Mix 1.5 pounds
Total 100 Pounds of Patties
As Fed % Protein Approx. = 17.5%


Ingredient
Sugar 37.0 pounds
Water 27.0 pounds
Brewers Yeast 16.0 pounds
Soy Flour 16.0 pounds
Corn Oil 2.5 pounds
Latshaw Pre Mix 1.5 pounds
Total 100 Pounds of Patties
As Fed % Protein Approx. = 15.5%


Thanks,
Joe
 
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#3 ·
Keith,

For the formula listed, the soy flour is 53% protein and the brewers yeast is 45%. They compliment each other well in terms of supplying a good protein source, but have some issues in terms of vitamins and minerals. The corn oil is one of the best sources for supplying the essential fatty acids and is readily available to beekeepers. Most essential fatty acid requirements for animal diets are satisfied by using approximately 1.75-2.5% oil. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe your diet uses a higher fat content. I think higher fat contents also helps with patty texture and consistency.

Joe
 
#5 ·
Keith,

Yes, that is an approximate range for diets. The formula I listed calls for 2.5 pounds which equals 2.5% when mixing the 100 pound batch of patties. Again this covers nutritional requirements, but some beekeepers use a higher percentage to get a soft patty consistency.

Joe
 
#12 ·
Keith and Michael,
No hard feelings… Would you be willing to share why it is that you disagree?

I am comfortable with the oil content. Some pollens have more, some less. There is a collection of research that looks at the nutritional quality/value of all kinds of fats and oils. Canola and Coconut oil are popular in the media in terms of being “healthy”, but in terms of nutritional value and cost there are better options.

Soy and Yeast do not have a lot of oil. Corn gluten and any of the other isolates are good sources of protein too, but keep in mind that to get the high protein content, many of the other nutrients are removed during the processing of the product. It is important to look at the entire picture.

What does it mean to add to the protein profile? Is there an ideal target you are working towards and do you take into account the protein content of the ingredients that are being used?

There are a couple of simple things when mixing patties. Start with fresh ingredients. Store ingredients and patties properly. Cold temperatures are better at preserving the nutritional value of ingredients and patties. I do not understand why beekeepers store ingredients or patties in a hot warehouse for extended periods of time. It just reduces the nutritional value!

Joe
 
#14 ·
Squarepeg,
A quick Google search for pollen composition will bring up some articles, but most are on specific species. We ran our analyses on composite pollen samples to get an “average” fat content as that is what the bees are eating. Fat Bees, Skinny Bees does a nice job summarizing research on pollen composition. I think there estimates for fat content are higher, maybe in the 4-8% range for artificial diets, but they specifically state the composition requirements for essential fatty acids. We add oil or fat to get the essential fatty acids. Not all oils have the same levels or ratios of essential fatty acids. Corn and soy oil are some of the better oils in terms of providing the essential fatty acids.

As a fun aside, look at some animal feed tags to see what their fat contents are. Most will say Min. Fat …, which means the fat content is pretty close. Show feeds tend to have higher fat contents as exhibitors like the finish it puts on the animal or the shine on the coat. Or, what is the recommend daily requirement in humans? It is interesting how similar the requirement is across so many animal species.

I listed 2.5% corn oil, and the soy and yeast will add approximately another 0.5% to the diet, so you are up to approximately 3.0% for the dietary fat content.
 
#15 ·
in the human eye, the protein pigments diminish with age. turns out it you can reverse this loss, (and the loss of vision that goes with it),by eating those protein pigments. but, you have to have the right amount of omega 3 fatty acids to metabolize the protein pigments, or you loss the benefit of taking them.

sounds like you are right on the money.
 
#16 ·
I use all three protiens in my mix brewers yeast, soy and corn gluten. I feel there is not enough lysin in just yeast and soy. I know my oils are more expensive and have used both corn and canola oils. look at the profiles of them and you do get a better fat with what i use. it may be overkill but since my wife is a soapmaker and we get both these oils in 15gal pails the cost is not to much higher.
 
#18 ·
Michael-bees,

Yes, I remember Zachary’s article. This is not new research, but has been published before 2010. It is a blanket recommendation as not all oils are the same. Insects do need fats/oils in their diet for the essential fatty acids used to drive metabolic pathways. The nutritional requirement for them may be different than the perceived requirement, as fats/oils often taste “good”.

Joe
 
#20 ·
Squarepeg

DeGroot’s work dates back a little ways. The analytical techniques used back then give different results than current techniques. To get current numbers, we analyzed composite pollen samples to establish amino acid levels. Amino acid levels are relatively easy to provide in a diet, and are seldom the limiting factor in bee diets.

Joe
 
#23 ·
can i call you joe? :)

this is off topic for this thread, but i see that you have a background in bee genetics.

i raised the point on another thread that it would be statistically unlikey for two individual bees in a given colony to have the exact same genotype. another poster disagreed.

can you help us settle this?

assume a colony of 60,000 bees, and the queen has mated with 15 drones.

thanks!
 
#24 ·
Squarepeg,

Joe is fine, I am pretty informal. :)

DeGroot specified specific ratios for optimal efficiency. I agree with that, but keep in mind that when dealing with biological systems, things change. Perhaps another way of looking at it is the system is only as efficient as the limiting ingredient. From a nutritional standpoint, there are many nutrients, not just amino acids. That is why I say amino acids are pretty easy and cheap to supply, but vitamins, minerals, and essential fatty acids are just as important at allowing the metabolic pathways to function properly. Unfortunately, I think a lot of diets do not take this into consideration and focus on just a handful of nutrients, when the picture is much bigger.

In talking with beekeepers, they see the sub formula that I posted and say it is too simple, it can’t be that simple. It can be for most of it, but there is that 1.5% of the premix that balances out approximately 30 vitamins and minerals for the rest of the diet. It seems like such a small amount, but is really important to allow all of the pathways to function properly.

I think your side discussion is pretty easy to clarify. You are correct. We can use Single Drone Inseminations to produce colonies of “Super Sisters” for research. This means workers share 75% percent of the genetic material in common, which is pretty extreme. When you consider the other 25% of the genetic makeup and how much that can vary due to recombination, etc., It is highly unlikely that two workers would ever be genetically identical.

Joe
 
#25 ·
excellent and informative reply there joe. thanks!

i'll need to get the particulars off of your website, but are you saying that you're a making a premix available that can be added to common ingredients to come up with a balanced feeding supplement?
 
#29 ·
Keith and Larry,

So much has changed since DeGroot’s initial work published back in the 50’s yet his numbers are still routinely cited today. Today’s analytical processes yield different results. It has been a while since I read DeGroot’s work, but I believe he looked primarily at amino acid ratios and did not take into account the changing vitamin and mineral levels, which would have had a great influence on the benefit of specific ratios.

In addition, animal nutrition in general has come a long way in the past 60 years. Diets are far more complete as we build our knowledge base. Think back to the bees and even livestock 60 years ago, which was before my time. :) I think the bees and even livestock back then would have benefitted from the advances in nutrition we have today. Take that one step further and look at how the bees have changed, genetically to meet the demands and management styles we have today. Does anyone still keep bees the way they did 60 years ago? How much pollen sub was fed 60 years ago, and why was it fed back then?

The fields of genetics and nutrition have changed the beekeeping landscape a great deal and try to keep pace with each other. Bigger and more productive colonies under greater stress (from all angles, including beekeepers) require properly formulated diets.

Joe
 
#31 ·
Don't leave us hanging Joe. What's your opinion on hive nutrition as it relates to DeGroot's original numbers? Adequate? Do we need to do more? Or would that just be throwing money away.
 
#32 ·
Environmental changes for bees could include:

Less access to pollen in general as open space is either developed or gone to woods (we see thjs here in New England)

Attempts to eradicate invasive species that pollinators depend on - not clear if those in favor of eradication understand the role that these plants play for the pollinators (we see this here with purple loosestrife and japanese knotweed)

Less diversity in varieties of pollen when bees are limited to monocultures ( pollen nutrition varies)

Less ability to access nutrition from pollen if pollen has been exposed to fungicides (fungicides can impact the fermentation of pollen into beebread - proper fermentation both creates and releases nutrients necessary for proper larval development)

Bees have co-evolved over millions of years with flowers and the microbes that support both the bees and the plants. Biological systems are flexible or they meet their demise. How flexible is where things get interesting.

Ramona
 
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