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Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

37K views 75 replies 19 participants last post by  davidsbees 
#1 ·
Outdoor bee work is winding down, so now it is time to get back to pollen sub...

In talking with beekeepers, there seems to be a couple of primary parameters that are important. I am not sure how to rank the following, but price, consumption rate, and protein content seem to be towards the top of the list, so that is what I am focusing on. Below are a couple of formulations I have been working with. They are pretty similar, but one has a higher protein content than the other. Sugar is a great feeding stimulant, so the formula with the lower protein content has more sugar. It all depends on what is more important to the bees and the beekeeper at the time.

I would appreciate any input, and if you like, mix some up and let me know what you think?

Ingredient
Sugar 33.0 pounds
Water 27.0 pounds
Brewers Yeast 18.0 pounds
Soy Flour 18.0 pounds
Corn Oil 2.5 pounds
Latshaw Pre Mix 1.5 pounds
Total 100 Pounds of Patties
As Fed % Protein Approx. = 17.5%


Ingredient
Sugar 37.0 pounds
Water 27.0 pounds
Brewers Yeast 16.0 pounds
Soy Flour 16.0 pounds
Corn Oil 2.5 pounds
Latshaw Pre Mix 1.5 pounds
Total 100 Pounds of Patties
As Fed % Protein Approx. = 15.5%


Thanks,
Joe
 
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#33 ·
Ramona,

Very well stated! My advising professor made it very clear that an experiment involving a biological system must be clearly defined as systems change and are subject to a wide range of variables and influences. Even our best efforts as researchers to limit the number variables and draw conclusions can be challenging. Does anything ever stand still?

Jim,

I think DeGroot’s finding are sound within the context of his research. However, I think we need to go beyond that body of research. An amino acid assay is relatively inexpensive and easy to run, but is only a very small portion of any diet. The point I would like to make is that any nutrient in a diet can be limiting. Supplying the amino acids is fairly simple and inexpensive. I think beekeepers do a good job with regard to protein content, especially by using multiple protein sources. However, the vitamins and minerals needed to drive the metabolic pathways that process the protein sources have been largely overlooked. Perhaps it is because of the time and expense involved to run the assays and feeding trials. Perhaps it is also difficult to think in parts per million (PPM) for a feed ingredient. Although a nutrient is required in such a small amount, it can greatly influence the efficacy of a diet, especially if the nutrient that is lacking is at the beginning of a long cascading pathway.

Interestingly enough, we can actually use lower protein content s and see very good results from a diet provided we balance out all of the nutrients which allows the bees to efficiently utilize the diet they are provided.

Joe
 
#34 ·
Thanks for the reply Joe. I guess, in the final analysis, the question of whether bees are getting the proper nutrition is a simple question with a complex answer. Barring any research showing that too much of a good thing can be bad, perhaps then one should err on the side of too much nutrition as opposed to too little?
 
#35 ·
Jim,

The Goldilocks and the three bears approach of just right is best. Too much or too little of a good thing can be bad. I think most of us are familiar with the idea of not having enough of something, but there is a growing area of nutritional research that demonstrates the pitfalls of how too much of something can be bad too. I think this is an interesting concept. The idea of ingesting way too much of something and seeing an immediate response is easy to conceptualize, but how the slow, prolonged ingestion of something over a long period of time is harder to conceptualize and quantify.

Then there is the economics of it all. Why pay for something that is not effectively utilized? Other animal industries will attempt to scrape out 1/10 of a percent in increased efficiency from a dietary additive, but I do not see this in beekeeping.

Joe
 
#36 ·
Other animal industries will attempt to scrape out 1/10 of a percent in increased efficiency from a dietary additive, but I do not see this in beekeeping.
Here at Nutra Bee we have had four of my dads roomates from (UC DAVIS) that have majored in biology, they call it there after work study.lol
We have programs that you inter the "CA" of each product with it's price per pound then on the other side you have the profile that you are trying to achive, hit the buttom and there you go. :)

I just have a much different outlook than Joe has. We have been feeding & making sub for over twenty years, we also have a lenthly track record with our own three thousands hives & countless others that prove to us that we are on the right track. What I saw in Joe's first post made my head spin.
I have said enough, good luck to all.
Keith
 
#37 ·
I guess the take away is balanced nutrition. Google as I may I found little information on conclusive studies outlining nutritional needs of Bees as it relates to vitamins,minerals and fats.
If these component are needed to efficiently utilize protein, I would suppose that the best sub would have the target amounts and the balance would be sugar + attractant to get them to take it as fast as possible? Is that a flawed conclusion or over simplistic?

Performance would be regionally depend. Bees here in Florida might not need all the nutrients but would have to ingest them to get to what they required getting too much of some?

Could it be that some colonies would benifit from added nutrients excluding protein in poor pollen quality or monocutural pollen environments ?
 
#38 ·
Keith brings up an interesting point. Are biologists necessarily nutritionists?

Computer feed formulation models have been around for a long time. I remember when I was a kid and my Dad’s department purchased their first computer specifically designed for feed formulation. That was almost 30 years ago. It was bigger than a chest freezer and all it would do is calculate feed formulations. As Keith said you could type in the nutritional profile that was desired specify a cost parameter, if you like and wait for the print out to go mix your feed. The challenge is specifying the desired nutritional profile. The computer can calculate an ingredients list, but it cannot determine the most desirable or optimal formula, that is still up to the research nutritionist.

Joe
 
#40 ·
The computer can calculate an ingredients list, but it cannot determine the most desirable or optimal formula, that is still up to the research nutritionist. Joe
Computer only gets you close, it take years, in our case we've been at it over twenty years to get where we are today. Jeff Peddis of the usda sampled one of our keeper bees for brood production, he was amazed at the difference of "cm" of brood from nutra bee sub compared to the others. It take alot of field work, in many cases years of it.
 
#39 ·
i noticed that the feeding of protein patties is being done in a big way by the commercial folks, and it is being done in the fall. my guess is for bigger hives going into to winter, resulting in bigger hives for: spring pollination contracts, bees for sale, honey for sale ect.

and it seems to be especially useful to folks who live in an area with little to no natural fall forage.

sorry if i'm getting away from the posted topic again, but my questions are:

is there any advantage to feeding protein patties if i have plenty of natural forage in the fall?

will feeding protein patties in the fall stimulate brood production above what it would be otherwise, at a time when brood rearing is being throttled back for winter?

does feeding cause a decrease in the colonies ability to deal with pests and pathogens as compared to a diet of exclusively natural forage?

i can see how i could help a colony in late winter/early spring 'catch up' if they were weak and low on stores at that time of year, but i'm not sure about the above.

many thanks.
 
#75 ·
1. is there any advantage to feeding protein patties if i have plenty of natural forage in the fall?

2. will feeding protein patties in the fall stimulate brood production above what it would be otherwise, at a time when brood rearing is being throttled back for winter?

3. does feeding cause a decrease in the colonies ability to deal with pests and pathogens as compared to a diet of exclusively natural forage?

i can see how i could help a colony in late winter/early spring 'catch up' if they were weak and low on stores at that time of year, but i'm not sure about the above.

many thanks.
just my observations which are limited to having kept 23 hives. 22 of which I have built up form swarms or queen rearing

1. Yes. in a hive that is building up say from a nuc it allows more energy for building less need to forage. How successful this is is variable I will have two nucs setting side by side. one foraging like mad the next has no bees coming or going but will be found covering the food. This indicates to me there is still something they need that is not found in the food.

2. Not that I have noticed. ti seems to me feed in the fall is stored. I gave my production hives sugar water after I take their honey. It is for them to replenish there stores for winter and that is what it appears to me they do with it. Maybe they just eat it and the honey I see getting stored is actually additional forage. I cannot say with any certainty. I know I feed in an amount that would be consistent with the honey I find.

3. I consider feeding sub par with natural forage. Due to this I assume feeding impacts overall heath in a negative way. even if it is only slightly. negative impact on health equals bees more susceptible. In the end I find that bees less than optimally healthy tend to do better than those that starve.

In the simplest form I see it like this. woudl I rather have my bees sick or dead? Nobody seems to be capable of offering a better range of choices.
 
#41 ·
JSL asked:

Does anyone still keep bees the way they did 60 years ago?

Yes, Same equipment, same stools, same methods(with some modifications), but different truck, and bee blower 50 years ago.. We are not sure everything is the best possible, but have not seen any positive effect in those hives that pollen substitute was added.it is possible we have mis-observed any benefits.

We are unique in that we do not migrate, and have considerable area of untilable land, being in the vicinity of terminal moraines(edge of glacial extant).

Crazy Roland
 
#42 ·
Mbeck,

I agree, balance is the key. I was thinking about Jim’s question yesterday about my opinion on DeGroot’s amino acid ratios. We analyze composite pollen samples to pull the numbers we attempt to target. Interestingly, the distribution of amino acids in composite samples is usually pretty close to the ratios DeGroot recommended.

I think that is very probable that bees would benefit from other nutrients in monoculture environments. Although it can be challenging to pinpoint which one’s.

Squarepeg,

I am not certain there is an advantage to feeding patties if you have an abundance of pollen. Perhaps it all depends on what you want from your bees. I think the studies have shown feeding can have a stimulatory effect. Again, whether that is good or bad, or even necessary depends on what you need for your situation. Your last question I am speculating on… I would think a good supplement would only help bees in terms of providing proper nutrition to help deal with pests and pathogens, but the catch may be increased brood production and how it relates to Varroa levels.

Roland,

I envy you! Sometimes I think we as beekeepers have made our lives and our bee’s lives more difficult by all of the changes we have implemented over the years. I thoroughly enjoy being out in the field working bees and often wonder what it would be like to go back in time. The closest I came to such an opportunity was working bees Hawaii, pre Varroa and hive beetles. It was like the days before we had Varroa here, but just a little better!

Joe
 
#47 ·
Tom,

That is my dilemma. I see what I think is an adequate oil content, but also see the opportunity to improve palatability of the patty. Oil helps to make for a softer more pliable patty, which I think certainly improves consumption. For me, it becomes a bit more murky when trying to determine the upper limit of oil in a patty. We know oil improves consumption and quality to a point, but so does sugar. There is only 100 percent of a patty to work with. Getting most of the ingredients roughed in is fairly manageable, but it’s the last few percentage points that seem to take the most work. I am not certain there is a one size fits all, so it becomes, what size fits most.

Joe
 
#50 · (Edited)
TWall, this maybe helpfull.
A reminder about the addition of oils in a pollen substitute.

http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documen...Article10.html
3. Other Nutrition

3.1. Sterols and Lipids

A sterol, 24-methylene cholesterol, is common in pollen and is the major sterol source for honey bees. Nearly all insects need to obtain sterol from their diet because of their inability to synthesize them directly. Sterol is the precursor for important hormones such as molting hormone, which regulates growth because it is required at the time of each molt. It is not clear what other lipids are required by honey bees, but most likely normal consumption of pollen provides for all the lipid requirements. Pollen with low fat content is less likely to be consumed by honey bees, but can be made more attractive to bees with the addition of lipids. The total lipid concentration within a pollen supplement is recommended to be 5%–8%.
 
#51 ·
From what I know about 24-methylene cholesterol, it is either produced or greatly enhanced through the pollen fermentation process within the first hour or so after the bee collects and inoculates the pollen with honey stomach fluids. The brood cannot develop without the 24-meth c.

It is my understanding that the bees cannot get the 24-methylene cholesterol anywhere else in their diet so need at least some real pollen. The nurse bees can pull nutrients from their bodies for 2-3 brood cycles but in the absence of at least some real pollen brood cannot be raised after these 2-3 generations.

Ramona
 
#52 ·
Ramona, we do know that natural pollen starts to break down after the first hour without lactic acid prosses, but, do we know that pollen substitutes act in the same way? Some have told me when the bees eat the sub the fermention process with the somach fluids will happen at that time. There are many conflicting veiws among the research commuity. Which came first the chicken or the egg.
 
#57 ·
Ramona,

I do not have a clear picture of 24-methylene cholesterol, or cholesterol usage in bees. The literature offers conflicting views on whether or not bees can synthesize cholesterol from plant based sterols. Your statement about brood needing cholesterol for development is in line with other animal species as most embryonic stages are unable to synthesize cholesterol, but quickly gain the ability after birth.

It used to be stated that plants did not produce cholesterol, but some newer research suggests that they do, just in very small amounts.

Joe
 
#58 ·
Don't have access to my bee/microbe files today but if I recall correctly the 24-methylene cholesterol is connected to a specific fungus that is associated with pollen.

Ramona

QUOTE=JSL;871647]Ramona,

I do not have a clear picture of 24-methylene cholesterol, or cholesterol usage in bees. The literature offers conflicting views on whether or not bees can synthesize cholesterol from plant based sterols. Your statement about brood needing cholesterol for development is in line with other animal species as most embryonic stages are unable to synthesize cholesterol, but quickly gain the ability after birth.

It used to be stated that plants did not produce cholesterol, but some newer research suggests that they do, just in very small amounts.

Joe[/QUOTE]
 
#59 ·
i agree that diet and nutrition is one of the most fundamental aspects of bee husbandry.

so much so, that i decided this year to forsake the honey crop, by only taking what i could, so as to not have to feed any syrup.

i did have two occasions where short-term emergency feeding was necessary.

last fall, i fed syrup after late a harvest. and i must admit, last year's fall colonies had larger clusters and heavier stores.

i.e. this year's clusters are much smaller, and the stores are lighter.

i wonder if letting the bees determine cluster strength based on the natural flow results in a more optimal cluster size?

i also wonder if not having the extra stores in late winter will cause a smaller build-up in advance of our main flow next spring?

it might make sense from a production standpoint, to supplement in the fall, just after the natural forage plays out. maybe that would leave more stores for spring build up.

it's a no brainer for the commercial operation. that's what you want.

does it make sense for someone not necessarily trying to max out #'s of honey per hive? or extra bees for pollination or sale?
 
#60 ·
If mites were to go away tomorrow nutrition is still the biggest challenge we have in central CA. Should have started feeding a protein supplement in early june, by the time I saw that they were stressed it was month to late. Some times it take a month or more to get to all the yards. I feed 1.5 lbs on the top super if the bees don't eat it it's not worth feeding. ( you can take that either way) bad idea to break cluster in the winter IMO.
Wood Cuisine
Wood Hardwood Product Plywood Floor
Food Cuisine Dish Sourdough Ingredient

This is my mix
25 gal syrup
80 lbs Ladshaw bee feed
50 lbs toasted soy flour (ADM)
50 lbs nutritional yeast (LaSaf)
25 lbs sugar
1 lbs ladshaw v&m mix
100 g enzyme mix (Canadian Bio)
100 g probiotic mix
1 gal corn oil
1 gal canola oil
1 gal coconut oil
6 oz lemongrass (lebermuth)
6 oz spearmint "
6 oz wintergreen "
mix subject to change
 
#62 ·
Joe, Your missing the eggs and oil. Can't go without those. You ask Keith,... He'll tell ya to add in that cheese powder.:cool:

Seriously though... the yeast and soy doesn't do the best job when it comes to raisin many bees when no pollen available. So far my formula has been a monster but its not just sugar, soy and yeast. Your missing those fatty's.
 
#63 ·
RAK,

The formulation I listed is more than soy, yeast and sugar, with a little oil. The vitamin and mineral premix we have formulated is what makes the recipe simple yet functional. Vitamins and minerals in the proper amount and ratios are what make the rest of the diet biologically available for digestion and utilization. The idea of using a scientifically formulated vitamin and mineral premix or supplement developed specifically for bees appears to be a novel if not somewhat foreign concept to many beekeepers. We try and make it look simple, but in fact, there is a lot of testing, calculations and analysis that goes into correctly balancing approximately 30 vitamins and minerals that go into the supplement and premix. It’s not magic, but rather common practice in production agriculture.

I realize you and others may argue that higher fat content is necessary, and on some levels I agree. Fat is tasty, and can contribute to the texture of the patty. But in the long run an overall balanced diet is the objective. Remember Halloween as a kid? All that candy was great for a little while, but what happened if you ate too much candy over an extended period of time?

Some tell me they use eggs for the fat content. Eggs also provide a source of cholesterol. I am just not certain on the cholesterol requirement. There is sound research on both sides of the fence. Bees do need cholesterol, that much appears to be true. Where or how they get it is the question. Plant based materials do provide some precursors to cholesterol molecules that most animals can utilize. There is also some more recent research that suggests plant materials contain small amounts of cholesterol molecules…

Have enjoyed this thread!
Joe
 
#64 ·
Joe, I will say I will take your information against un supported challenges any day. At least I can start mixing your recipe. The only reason I can see for the challenge is to cast false doubt in the minds of others. A commercial person legitimately guarding secrets would never have spoken up at all.

I am interested in Latshaw in general. I found enough info searching II that it peeked my interest. but everything I have found is fairly vague and unsupported. For example, head of a huge breeding cooperation but I did not find anything about the results of that program. Also on my list for breeder queens. But at a $2000 min purchase I want to see a lot more about what these bees are like.

I also saw this recipe in my search but nothing to support it.

I would appreciate any leads even through PM into digging deeper. Just to make up my own mind as to the quality and progress of your work.

I didn't realize you where right here on the same playground.
 
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