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  1. #61

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Thank you for sharing your mix. It is nice to have people on this forum to share a working recipe. A rising tide raises all ships.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Joe, Your missing the eggs and oil. Can't go without those. You ask Keith,... He'll tell ya to add in that cheese powder.

    Seriously though... the yeast and soy doesn't do the best job when it comes to raisin many bees when no pollen available. So far my formula has been a monster but its not just sugar, soy and yeast. Your missing those fatty's.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    442

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    RAK,

    The formulation I listed is more than soy, yeast and sugar, with a little oil. The vitamin and mineral premix we have formulated is what makes the recipe simple yet functional. Vitamins and minerals in the proper amount and ratios are what make the rest of the diet biologically available for digestion and utilization. The idea of using a scientifically formulated vitamin and mineral premix or supplement developed specifically for bees appears to be a novel if not somewhat foreign concept to many beekeepers. We try and make it look simple, but in fact, there is a lot of testing, calculations and analysis that goes into correctly balancing approximately 30 vitamins and minerals that go into the supplement and premix. It’s not magic, but rather common practice in production agriculture.

    I realize you and others may argue that higher fat content is necessary, and on some levels I agree. Fat is tasty, and can contribute to the texture of the patty. But in the long run an overall balanced diet is the objective. Remember Halloween as a kid? All that candy was great for a little while, but what happened if you ate too much candy over an extended period of time?

    Some tell me they use eggs for the fat content. Eggs also provide a source of cholesterol. I am just not certain on the cholesterol requirement. There is sound research on both sides of the fence. Bees do need cholesterol, that much appears to be true. Where or how they get it is the question. Plant based materials do provide some precursors to cholesterol molecules that most animals can utilize. There is also some more recent research that suggests plant materials contain small amounts of cholesterol molecules…

    Have enjoyed this thread!
    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,178

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Joe, I will say I will take your information against un supported challenges any day. At least I can start mixing your recipe. The only reason I can see for the challenge is to cast false doubt in the minds of others. A commercial person legitimately guarding secrets would never have spoken up at all.

    I am interested in Latshaw in general. I found enough info searching II that it peeked my interest. but everything I have found is fairly vague and unsupported. For example, head of a huge breeding cooperation but I did not find anything about the results of that program. Also on my list for breeder queens. But at a $2000 min purchase I want to see a lot more about what these bees are like.

    I also saw this recipe in my search but nothing to support it.

    I would appreciate any leads even through PM into digging deeper. Just to make up my own mind as to the quality and progress of your work.

    I didn't realize you where right here on the same playground.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,710

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Joe, I am also one of those who agree with rainesridgefarm, and thank you for posting this informative thread. I am not currently in a position to make a serious judgement as who has the best formula, but without your posting, I would be even further in the dark! And I learned a lot reviewing your website.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    442

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Graham,

    Thanks, this has been a fun one!

    Daniel,

    I think your assessment is fair. I come from a research background and try to apply it to beekeeping, but consider myself to be a beekeeper at heart. Most of my time is spent in the field working bees or working with other beekeepers. I try to share as much information as possible with beekeepers and enjoy learning from other beekeepers! In beekeeping there are many opinions and approaches. Therefore, I share my opinions and approaches and encourage beekeepers to give it a try. The stock I produce or the nutrition work we do is not to everyone’s liking. There are many diverse operations around this country and they have developed systems that work for them. When approached by other beekeepers I try to help in any way I can or in many cases work to find the answers I simply do not know.

    RAK,

    To be fair, I do use diets with higher oil contents, up around 5%, but for the reasons I stated earlier. If I am looking at faster consumption or a specific texture, oil will certainly help me do that.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  7. #67
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Joe, I have noticed the bees eat the fatter sub faster and it is much easier to work with. easier to clean out the mixer and doesn't stick to everything. I have never tried your minerals but might have to test them out...

    I bit off topic but what I have tried is your Karnica strain. I cross the daughters of your Karnica queens with Italian mix drones and got some of the best bees. They respond to sub and syrup real well and have large population. Don't swarm as much as other carniolan bees. Whoever needs evidence... look into my hives, guaranteed you will be jealous.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,287

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Quote Originally Posted by RAK View Post
    Your missing the eggs and oil.
    RAK, missing alot more than that. This whole commercial thread is heading that way.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  9. #69
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Keith, I'm always missing something. That's exactly why your going to ship me a truckload in August!

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,178

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    How do you keep a home mixed batch moist. I like mega bee that stays soft for days. I made up some other stuff this last year and it dried up rock hard in 24 hours.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    large amounts of soy with no oil will typically result in sub that dries up.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Visalia, CA USA
    Posts
    147

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    I posted my sub mix in the spirit of sharing.I forgot to add that I put 4 cups of citric acid. No problem with sub getting hard. No eggs...no cheez...no bacon.......NO BULL! These are aug splits, pic taken today Dec 21 2012, 3+ frames brood.IMG_0688.jpgIMG_0692.jpg

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,602

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Davidsbees, you mention probiotic in your sub mix. Did you make your own or buy it?

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,602

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    And is increasing the fat content as simple as increasing the oil content? At what point does the added oil make the patty unpalatable ?

    and thanks to Joe and Davidsbees for making their recipes available. Im currently in the process of making a recipe for my own mix.

    fantastic thread guys!!
    Last edited by Ian; 02-05-2014 at 08:32 AM.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,178

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post

    1. is there any advantage to feeding protein patties if i have plenty of natural forage in the fall?

    2. will feeding protein patties in the fall stimulate brood production above what it would be otherwise, at a time when brood rearing is being throttled back for winter?

    3. does feeding cause a decrease in the colonies ability to deal with pests and pathogens as compared to a diet of exclusively natural forage?

    i can see how i could help a colony in late winter/early spring 'catch up' if they were weak and low on stores at that time of year, but i'm not sure about the above.

    many thanks.
    just my observations which are limited to having kept 23 hives. 22 of which I have built up form swarms or queen rearing

    1. Yes. in a hive that is building up say from a nuc it allows more energy for building less need to forage. How successful this is is variable I will have two nucs setting side by side. one foraging like mad the next has no bees coming or going but will be found covering the food. This indicates to me there is still something they need that is not found in the food.

    2. Not that I have noticed. ti seems to me feed in the fall is stored. I gave my production hives sugar water after I take their honey. It is for them to replenish there stores for winter and that is what it appears to me they do with it. Maybe they just eat it and the honey I see getting stored is actually additional forage. I cannot say with any certainty. I know I feed in an amount that would be consistent with the honey I find.

    3. I consider feeding sub par with natural forage. Due to this I assume feeding impacts overall heath in a negative way. even if it is only slightly. negative impact on health equals bees more susceptible. In the end I find that bees less than optimally healthy tend to do better than those that starve.

    In the simplest form I see it like this. woudl I rather have my bees sick or dead? Nobody seems to be capable of offering a better range of choices.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Visalia, CA USA
    Posts
    147

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    I buy a enzyme and probiotic product. Currently working with a nutrititionist to formulate a more compleat mix. I use 3 different oil to get a better fatty acid mix also add a precursor to 24 methalchoestral I keep the oil level about 7%.
    David
    beebotanical.com 40 years-4000 colonies-treatment eo's

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