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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    interesting joe. for some reason i was of the understanding that they were critical, and in the correct amounts, because their metabolism needed the proper cascading?

    how do you understand it?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    oops. just visited your website, looks like i should address you as dr. joe. my apologies.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    can i call you joe?

    this is off topic for this thread, but i see that you have a background in bee genetics.

    i raised the point on another thread that it would be statistically unlikey for two individual bees in a given colony to have the exact same genotype. another poster disagreed.

    can you help us settle this?

    assume a colony of 60,000 bees, and the queen has mated with 15 drones.

    thanks!
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #24
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    Sep 2007
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    New Albany, Ohio, USA
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Squarepeg,

    Joe is fine, I am pretty informal.

    DeGroot specified specific ratios for optimal efficiency. I agree with that, but keep in mind that when dealing with biological systems, things change. Perhaps another way of looking at it is the system is only as efficient as the limiting ingredient. From a nutritional standpoint, there are many nutrients, not just amino acids. That is why I say amino acids are pretty easy and cheap to supply, but vitamins, minerals, and essential fatty acids are just as important at allowing the metabolic pathways to function properly. Unfortunately, I think a lot of diets do not take this into consideration and focus on just a handful of nutrients, when the picture is much bigger.

    In talking with beekeepers, they see the sub formula that I posted and say it is too simple, it can’t be that simple. It can be for most of it, but there is that 1.5% of the premix that balances out approximately 30 vitamins and minerals for the rest of the diet. It seems like such a small amount, but is really important to allow all of the pathways to function properly.

    I think your side discussion is pretty easy to clarify. You are correct. We can use Single Drone Inseminations to produce colonies of “Super Sisters” for research. This means workers share 75% percent of the genetic material in common, which is pretty extreme. When you consider the other 25% of the genetic makeup and how much that can vary due to recombination, etc., It is highly unlikely that two workers would ever be genetically identical.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    excellent and informative reply there joe. thanks!

    i'll need to get the particulars off of your website, but are you saying that you're a making a premix available that can be added to common ingredients to come up with a balanced feeding supplement?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    website says 'yes'. i feel kinda of stupid for not checking it out first joe. for some reason i assumed you were a hobbiest like me trying to come up with a plan. duh...
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Quote Originally Posted by JSL View Post
    DeGroot specified specific ratios for optimal efficiency. I agree with that, but keep in mind that when dealing with biological systems, things change.
    I'm a little slow here, what biological systems have changed since Degroot? Am I reading this right?
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  8. #28
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    Nov 2004
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    Camarillo, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    The biological system no, the outside environment, yes! or in other words , their are additional things in our environment since DeGroot wrote. These things are having an impact on the bees.
    Larry Pender,Jubilee HoneyBee Company,Camarillo, CA

  9. #29
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    New Albany, Ohio, USA
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Keith and Larry,

    So much has changed since DeGroot’s initial work published back in the 50’s yet his numbers are still routinely cited today. Today’s analytical processes yield different results. It has been a while since I read DeGroot’s work, but I believe he looked primarily at amino acid ratios and did not take into account the changing vitamin and mineral levels, which would have had a great influence on the benefit of specific ratios.

    In addition, animal nutrition in general has come a long way in the past 60 years. Diets are far more complete as we build our knowledge base. Think back to the bees and even livestock 60 years ago, which was before my time. I think the bees and even livestock back then would have benefitted from the advances in nutrition we have today. Take that one step further and look at how the bees have changed, genetically to meet the demands and management styles we have today. Does anyone still keep bees the way they did 60 years ago? How much pollen sub was fed 60 years ago, and why was it fed back then?

    The fields of genetics and nutrition have changed the beekeeping landscape a great deal and try to keep pace with each other. Bigger and more productive colonies under greater stress (from all angles, including beekeepers) require properly formulated diets.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    I'm a little slow here, what biological systems have changed since Degroot? Am I reading this right?
    Joe, your post #24, you state biological systems have changed can you explaine this ?

    Larry, agreeded.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  11. #31
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Don't leave us hanging Joe. What's your opinion on hive nutrition as it relates to DeGroot's original numbers? Adequate? Do we need to do more? Or would that just be throwing money away.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #32
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    Apr 2008
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    Leominster, MA USA
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Environmental changes for bees could include:

    Less access to pollen in general as open space is either developed or gone to woods (we see thjs here in New England)

    Attempts to eradicate invasive species that pollinators depend on - not clear if those in favor of eradication understand the role that these plants play for the pollinators (we see this here with purple loosestrife and japanese knotweed)

    Less diversity in varieties of pollen when bees are limited to monocultures ( pollen nutrition varies)

    Less ability to access nutrition from pollen if pollen has been exposed to fungicides (fungicides can impact the fermentation of pollen into beebread - proper fermentation both creates and releases nutrients necessary for proper larval development)

    Bees have co-evolved over millions of years with flowers and the microbes that support both the bees and the plants. Biological systems are flexible or they meet their demise. How flexible is where things get interesting.

    Ramona

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Ramona,

    Very well stated! My advising professor made it very clear that an experiment involving a biological system must be clearly defined as systems change and are subject to a wide range of variables and influences. Even our best efforts as researchers to limit the number variables and draw conclusions can be challenging. Does anything ever stand still?

    Jim,

    I think DeGroot’s finding are sound within the context of his research. However, I think we need to go beyond that body of research. An amino acid assay is relatively inexpensive and easy to run, but is only a very small portion of any diet. The point I would like to make is that any nutrient in a diet can be limiting. Supplying the amino acids is fairly simple and inexpensive. I think beekeepers do a good job with regard to protein content, especially by using multiple protein sources. However, the vitamins and minerals needed to drive the metabolic pathways that process the protein sources have been largely overlooked. Perhaps it is because of the time and expense involved to run the assays and feeding trials. Perhaps it is also difficult to think in parts per million (PPM) for a feed ingredient. Although a nutrient is required in such a small amount, it can greatly influence the efficacy of a diet, especially if the nutrient that is lacking is at the beginning of a long cascading pathway.

    Interestingly enough, we can actually use lower protein content s and see very good results from a diet provided we balance out all of the nutrients which allows the bees to efficiently utilize the diet they are provided.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Thanks for the reply Joe. I guess, in the final analysis, the question of whether bees are getting the proper nutrition is a simple question with a complex answer. Barring any research showing that too much of a good thing can be bad, perhaps then one should err on the side of too much nutrition as opposed to too little?
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Jim,

    The Goldilocks and the three bears approach of just right is best. Too much or too little of a good thing can be bad. I think most of us are familiar with the idea of not having enough of something, but there is a growing area of nutritional research that demonstrates the pitfalls of how too much of something can be bad too. I think this is an interesting concept. The idea of ingesting way too much of something and seeing an immediate response is easy to conceptualize, but how the slow, prolonged ingestion of something over a long period of time is harder to conceptualize and quantify.

    Then there is the economics of it all. Why pay for something that is not effectively utilized? Other animal industries will attempt to scrape out 1/10 of a percent in increased efficiency from a dietary additive, but I do not see this in beekeeping.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Quote Originally Posted by JSL View Post
    Other animal industries will attempt to scrape out 1/10 of a percent in increased efficiency from a dietary additive, but I do not see this in beekeeping.
    Here at Nutra Bee we have had four of my dads roomates from (UC DAVIS) that have majored in biology, they call it there after work study.lol
    We have programs that you inter the "CA" of each product with it's price per pound then on the other side you have the profile that you are trying to achive, hit the buttom and there you go.

    I just have a much different outlook than Joe has. We have been feeding & making sub for over twenty years, we also have a lenthly track record with our own three thousands hives & countless others that prove to us that we are on the right track. What I saw in Joe's first post made my head spin.
    I have said enough, good luck to all.
    Keith
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  17. #37
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    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    I guess the take away is balanced nutrition. Google as I may I found little information on conclusive studies outlining nutritional needs of Bees as it relates to vitamins,minerals and fats.
    If these component are needed to efficiently utilize protein, I would suppose that the best sub would have the target amounts and the balance would be sugar + attractant to get them to take it as fast as possible? Is that a flawed conclusion or over simplistic?

    Performance would be regionally depend. Bees here in Florida might not need all the nutrients but would have to ingest them to get to what they required getting too much of some?

    Could it be that some colonies would benifit from added nutrients excluding protein in poor pollen quality or monocutural pollen environments ?

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Keith brings up an interesting point. Are biologists necessarily nutritionists?

    Computer feed formulation models have been around for a long time. I remember when I was a kid and my Dad’s department purchased their first computer specifically designed for feed formulation. That was almost 30 years ago. It was bigger than a chest freezer and all it would do is calculate feed formulations. As Keith said you could type in the nutritional profile that was desired specify a cost parameter, if you like and wait for the print out to go mix your feed. The challenge is specifying the desired nutritional profile. The computer can calculate an ingredients list, but it cannot determine the most desirable or optimal formula, that is still up to the research nutritionist.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    i noticed that the feeding of protein patties is being done in a big way by the commercial folks, and it is being done in the fall. my guess is for bigger hives going into to winter, resulting in bigger hives for: spring pollination contracts, bees for sale, honey for sale ect.

    and it seems to be especially useful to folks who live in an area with little to no natural fall forage.

    sorry if i'm getting away from the posted topic again, but my questions are:

    is there any advantage to feeding protein patties if i have plenty of natural forage in the fall?

    will feeding protein patties in the fall stimulate brood production above what it would be otherwise, at a time when brood rearing is being throttled back for winter?

    does feeding cause a decrease in the colonies ability to deal with pests and pathogens as compared to a diet of exclusively natural forage?

    i can see how i could help a colony in late winter/early spring 'catch up' if they were weak and low on stores at that time of year, but i'm not sure about the above.

    many thanks.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Quote Originally Posted by JSL View Post
    The computer can calculate an ingredients list, but it cannot determine the most desirable or optimal formula, that is still up to the research nutritionist. Joe
    Computer only gets you close, it take years, in our case we've been at it over twenty years to get where we are today. Jeff Peddis of the usda sampled one of our keeper bees for brood production, he was amazed at the difference of "cm" of brood from nutra bee sub compared to the others. It take alot of field work, in many cases years of it.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

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