Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 76
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    368

    Default Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Outdoor bee work is winding down, so now it is time to get back to pollen sub...

    In talking with beekeepers, there seems to be a couple of primary parameters that are important. I am not sure how to rank the following, but price, consumption rate, and protein content seem to be towards the top of the list, so that is what I am focusing on. Below are a couple of formulations I have been working with. They are pretty similar, but one has a higher protein content than the other. Sugar is a great feeding stimulant, so the formula with the lower protein content has more sugar. It all depends on what is more important to the bees and the beekeeper at the time.

    I would appreciate any input, and if you like, mix some up and let me know what you think?

    Ingredient
    Sugar 33.0 pounds
    Water 27.0 pounds
    Brewers Yeast 18.0 pounds
    Soy Flour 18.0 pounds
    Corn Oil 2.5 pounds
    Latshaw Pre Mix 1.5 pounds
    Total 100 Pounds of Patties
    As Fed % Protein Approx. = 17.5%


    Ingredient
    Sugar 37.0 pounds
    Water 27.0 pounds
    Brewers Yeast 16.0 pounds
    Soy Flour 16.0 pounds
    Corn Oil 2.5 pounds
    Latshaw Pre Mix 1.5 pounds
    Total 100 Pounds of Patties
    As Fed % Protein Approx. = 15.5%


    Thanks,
    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,193

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    One question Joe, what are the protein content of the Brewers & Soy flour? and is there any other protein source? The same for your fat profile? is it just the Corn oil for your fats?
    Thanks, Keith
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    368

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Keith,

    For the formula listed, the soy flour is 53% protein and the brewers yeast is 45%. They compliment each other well in terms of supplying a good protein source, but have some issues in terms of vitamins and minerals. The corn oil is one of the best sources for supplying the essential fatty acids and is readily available to beekeepers. Most essential fatty acid requirements for animal diets are satisfied by using approximately 1.75-2.5% oil. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe your diet uses a higher fat content. I think higher fat contents also helps with patty texture and consistency.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,193

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Joe, if I'm reading you right the fat profile would be 1.75-2.5% is this correct ?
    Last edited by Keith Jarrett; 11-17-2012 at 01:37 PM. Reason: addingto post
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    368

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Keith,

    Yes, that is an approximate range for diets. The formula I listed calls for 2.5 pounds which equals 2.5% when mixing the 100 pound batch of patties. Again this covers nutritional requirements, but some beekeepers use a higher percentage to get a soft patty consistency.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,193

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Quote Originally Posted by JSL View Post
    Again this covers nutritional requirements,Joe
    Joe, I respectfully disagree.

    Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
    Keith
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  7. #7

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    There is some fat content in both the soy and the yeast does that add to the equation. I have always used coconut and olive oil in my patties. I also add some corn gluten to my mix to add to the protein profile. But when i mix mine I add hfcs with sucrose to give them three sugar types.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Winston Salem , NC
    Posts
    228

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Can anyone comment on the proper way to mix and package the patties? Thanks
    larry

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    oneida ny usa
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Me too. 8% fat required
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Joe, I respectfully disagree.

    Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
    Keith

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,648

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Joe, I respectfully disagree.

    Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
    Keith
    please elaborate if you can do so without releasing any sensitive trade secret. not everybody is able to buy your product keith. please, help us if you can. the commercial guys don't have time to make their own anyway!
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,648

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    joe, it sounds like you researched the diet info. are you comfortable with your sources?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    368

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Keith and Michael,
    No hard feelings… Would you be willing to share why it is that you disagree?

    I am comfortable with the oil content. Some pollens have more, some less. There is a collection of research that looks at the nutritional quality/value of all kinds of fats and oils. Canola and Coconut oil are popular in the media in terms of being “healthy”, but in terms of nutritional value and cost there are better options.

    Soy and Yeast do not have a lot of oil. Corn gluten and any of the other isolates are good sources of protein too, but keep in mind that to get the high protein content, many of the other nutrients are removed during the processing of the product. It is important to look at the entire picture.

    What does it mean to add to the protein profile? Is there an ideal target you are working towards and do you take into account the protein content of the ingredients that are being used?

    There are a couple of simple things when mixing patties. Start with fresh ingredients. Store ingredients and patties properly. Cold temperatures are better at preserving the nutritional value of ingredients and patties. I do not understand why beekeepers store ingredients or patties in a hot warehouse for extended periods of time. It just reduces the nutritional value!

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,648

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    joe, i am interested in this, can you list some resources that discuss bee feed? it may be hard for those with a commercial interest to discuss it openly here.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    368

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Squarepeg,
    A quick Google search for pollen composition will bring up some articles, but most are on specific species. We ran our analyses on composite pollen samples to get an “average” fat content as that is what the bees are eating. Fat Bees, Skinny Bees does a nice job summarizing research on pollen composition. I think there estimates for fat content are higher, maybe in the 4-8% range for artificial diets, but they specifically state the composition requirements for essential fatty acids. We add oil or fat to get the essential fatty acids. Not all oils have the same levels or ratios of essential fatty acids. Corn and soy oil are some of the better oils in terms of providing the essential fatty acids.

    As a fun aside, look at some animal feed tags to see what their fat contents are. Most will say Min. Fat …, which means the fat content is pretty close. Show feeds tend to have higher fat contents as exhibitors like the finish it puts on the animal or the shine on the coat. Or, what is the recommend daily requirement in humans? It is interesting how similar the requirement is across so many animal species.

    I listed 2.5% corn oil, and the soy and yeast will add approximately another 0.5% to the diet, so you are up to approximately 3.0% for the dietary fat content.
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,648

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    in the human eye, the protein pigments diminish with age. turns out it you can reverse this loss, (and the loss of vision that goes with it),by eating those protein pigments. but, you have to have the right amount of omega 3 fatty acids to metabolize the protein pigments, or you loss the benefit of taking them.

    sounds like you are right on the money.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #16

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    I use all three protiens in my mix brewers yeast, soy and corn gluten. I feel there is not enough lysin in just yeast and soy. I know my oils are more expensive and have used both corn and canola oils. look at the profiles of them and you do get a better fat with what i use. it may be overkill but since my wife is a soapmaker and we get both these oils in 15gal pails the cost is not to much higher.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    oneida ny usa
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    ABJ Aug 2010 page 776 3.1 sterols and lipids
    Quote Originally Posted by JSL View Post
    Keith and Michael,
    No hard feelings… Would you be willing to share why it is that you disagree?

    I am comfortable with the oil content. Some pollens have more, some less. There is a collection of research that looks at the nutritional quality/value of all kinds of fats and oils. Canola and Coconut oil are popular in the media in terms of being “healthy”, but in terms of nutritional value and cost there are better options.

    Soy and Yeast do not have a lot of oil. Corn gluten and any of the other isolates are good sources of protein too, but keep in mind that to get the high protein content, many of the other nutrients are removed during the processing of the product. It is important to look at the entire picture.

    What does it mean to add to the protein profile? Is there an ideal target you are working towards and do you take into account the protein content of the ingredients that are being used?

    There are a couple of simple things when mixing patties. Start with fresh ingredients. Store ingredients and patties properly. Cold temperatures are better at preserving the nutritional value of ingredients and patties. I do not understand why beekeepers store ingredients or patties in a hot warehouse for extended periods of time. It just reduces the nutritional value!

    Joe

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    368

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Michael-bees,

    Yes, I remember Zachary’s article. This is not new research, but has been published before 2010. It is a blanket recommendation as not all oils are the same. Insects do need fats/oils in their diet for the essential fatty acids used to drive metabolic pathways. The nutritional requirement for them may be different than the perceived requirement, as fats/oils often taste “good”.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,648

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    joe, i wish i could help more, but i've no expertise in this at all. how are you establishing that you have the correct de groot amounts of amino acids?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    368

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?

    Squarepeg

    DeGroot’s work dates back a little ways. The analytical techniques used back then give different results than current techniques. To get current numbers, we analyzed composite pollen samples to establish amino acid levels. Amino acid levels are relatively easy to provide in a diet, and are seldom the limiting factor in bee diets.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads