Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

[Specialkayme]

This is a huge assumption upon which the rest of your theory is predicated.

Not really an assumption. Just one possible example.

You may control 80% of the population. You may control 10%. You also may control 100%. If you are keeping bees in the middle of the desert, or on an island, things will be totally different than if you keep bees in the center of a "beekeeping mecca."

Tom Seeley studied beehives in the Arnot Forest (4200 acres near Newfield, NY) and found between 12 and 15 colonies existed (all feral) between the 1970's and 2006. That's in a forest. What if you live in a suburban, or urban area. More? Less? Who knows. But I'd venture to say about the same. That's what I based my example on.

But, more to the point, you can't tell me I'm wrong, just like I can't tell you I'm right. Which makes further discussion of the topic futile.

I may be the only one stupid enough to talk about what I do.

Yes to the first, no to the second. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

[sqkcrk]

I don't know if interbreeding is a problem but it could be if all your local bes are derived from a few ferals or your own colonies.

Did you mean INBREEDING? I don't see how interbreeding could be a problem. Wouldn't interbreeding broaden the gene pool?

[Solomon Parker]

I seem to be the only one commenting who practices the subject of the thread.

[sqkcrk]

Well, I guess we should leave you to it then. What's the sound of one Solomon Bonding w/ his bees?

[Riskybizz]

Solomon

I am not a strict disciple of the Bond Project per se, but I do prescribe to the practice of localized breeding of the current genetics within my yards. I am probably like you in that there are other people keeping bees within proximity to some of my yards that send forth drones easily within my mating zone areas. I do have 3 bee yards along the Rio Grande River spread out about 2 miles apart. Within this area I know that there are numerous wild hives located in the huge 100 year old cottonwood trees that line the river. Many of these colonies have originated from my hives as swarms. Every year I am also sure that I manage to catch some of these swarms and place them in my yards. As much as I regret losing my own swarms each spring at least I know that these colonies might be the feral survivors of tomorrow. In addition many years ago I worked for a commercial beekeeper (Jerry Cole) when I first moved to N.M. Mr. Cole used to run 70-80 hives in this same area until he passed away 10 years ago. I am fortunate that I am able to keep bees in this area, and that the bees are in very good shape as a whole. Our mite loads tend to be quite light here. Bite my tongue.

[Solomon Parker]

What's the sound of one Solomon Bonding w/ his bees?

What sound does it make when you squish a queen?

[taydeko]

I seem to be the only one commenting who practices the subject of the thread.

I am right there with you Solomon!

Ted

[Solomon Parker]

You know what reduces the gene pool? Monarchy.

I have been of a mind for some time that a queen should not be called a queen. She's as less a queen than Elizabeth. She's not queen of anything. She's not a sovereign. She's an egg donor primarily and little more. I digress.

[sqkcrk]

Bee Hen?

[JRG13]

Did you mean INBREEDING? I don't see how interbreeding could be a problem. Wouldn't interbreeding broaden the gene pool?

I meant both! Square, I saw that post from Dr. Latshaw, cool stuff. I only figured it possible with a fairly inbred queen that mated with limited drones. I think it would be a cool study to pick a couple hundred markers in a bee yard and see how well they're maintained and then we could get some answers.

[Specialkayme]

I seem to be the only one commenting who practices the subject of the thread.

I don't practice the Bond Method anymore. Key word is anymore. I did from 2004 through 2011. Although I did attempt to bring in some outside genetics, I largely bred from surviving colonies, with no treatments what so ever. Things didn't end well for me. In the spring of 2011 I started with 8 colonies. I increased the number to somewhere in the neighborhood of 24. Then, one by one I lost them all over the course of the fall of 2011. Some to varroa issues, some to what I've come to realize were nosema issues, some for still unknown reasons. By December of 2011 I had 2 colonies. By January I had none. That's well beyond the 3 year "no treatment crash" everyone told me would come.

So, if you are the only one qualified to talk about this issue, why don't we all just sit down and have you "school us" in the way of the bee. Clearly you know way more than anyone else here, and any other form of "contribution" is just getting in the way of you spreading your greatness. I apologize for the inconvenience my words have caused, creating some form of filler between the tid bits of "Sol Wisdom."

. . .

Or maybe we can treat this more like an open discussion. . .

[Solomon Parker]

Or maybe we can treat this more like an open discussion. . .

...where most people involved aren't doing what we're discussing. Maybe we should discuss driving monster trucks, or flying commercial airplanes, or competing in Olympic level gymnastics.

Howabout you keep your insults to yourself. They are not helping.

[Specialkayme]

Maybe we should discuss driving monster trucks, or flying commercial airplanes, or competing in Olympic level gymnastics.

Or how great sol is, or how amazing his contributions to beekeeping are, or how he's so much more experienced than anyone else in this thread, or this site, or how his logic is un-questionable and his conclusions are automatic law, or about how he doesn't think anyone else's contributions to this thread, or occasionally this site, are even worth the cost of the electricity needed to read it . . .

Howabout you keep your insults to yourself.

Keep your comments about others' contributions and experiences to yourself, and I'll keep my "insults" to myself. I think that's a fair trade.

[Solomon Parker]

You know, one of the greatest things about not being a moderator is I quite literally don't have to put up with this anymore. Consider yourself blocked.

[squarepeg]

'let the sparks fly and the chips fall were they may.....'

i agree in open discussion, and not limiting participation by any arbitrary criteria, and i agree that profanity and personal attacks don't have a place on the forum.

this thread was a perfect example of how a group of people with diverse experiences and backgrounds can roll a topic around and end up learning something new, or advance their understanding.

i'd be willing to bet, that most everyone involved in the conversation here, not to mention all of those just viewing it, would claim that they were edified by it in some way. jmho of course.

[Adam Foster Collins]

I am just this season going "treatment free", and it's tense, I must say. I can see mite damage, and it's difficult not to break out the oxalic acid.

That said, I also split a lot this year. I also plan to create a nuc-based operation moving forward, so I imagine the splitting will keep the mites under control to some extent. I'm not going that way in order to combat mites, but I'm well aware that it may just work out that way.

Adam

[Oldtimer]

i agree in open discussion, and not limiting participation by any arbitrary criteria, and i agree that profanity and personal attacks don't have a place on the forum.

Agreed. Also, most of us learn to sift the wheat from the chaff.

If we confined discussions to only those who are self annointed practitioners / experienced experts in it, we would have to exclude that large portion of the TF forum, who tell us they've had bees for nearly a year now and never treated, so it must work.

Is Specialkayme qualified to speak on the subject? Well since he practised the bond method for years, I would say more qualified than most. Blocking him is just excluding opinions that vary from one's own personal dogma.

If say, Adam Foster Collins was successful with his use of the bond method, he would be welcomed? But if next year he lost them all, would it be OK to report that, or would he get blocked?

[squarepeg]

many thanks oldtimer. 'wheat from the chaff...', i really like that.

specialkayme's posts will still appear here, and so will everyone else's, since sol is not the moderator anymore. (barring profanity and personal attacks, as judged by barry, the new moderator)

by blocking, i'm guessing that only means personal messages

[Solomon Parker]

It means one doesn't have to read the blocked persons posts anymore. Alastair's been blocked for a while. I have grown tired of reading the thinly veiled insults. It has nothing to do with any other content in posts. Just insults.

[squarepeg]

so the rest of us will continue to see specialkayme's posts, right? just you won't see them anymore?