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  1. #101
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    May 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    I don't know if interbreeding is a problem but it could be if all your local bes are derived from a few ferals or your own colonies. I just see it this way, say you have 100 colonies, each one putting out drones. There might be 1-2 queens coming out to mate in a week for example. She might mate with 30 of them, and some will be from the sames hives, excluding a minimum of 70% of your colonies from passing on their genes if they were interbreeding just around your hives. Now we can speculate on drone congregation areas etc... where there might be even more drones from who knows how many other local colonies all competing to pass on their dna to the few queens available every week. Which also brings us to mite vs bee interactions... Mites go through a generation a brood cycle, bees, 1-3 years, thus their major disadvantage in competing with mites on an evolutionary scale as well, but drone pressure helps future colonies but not as high as turning a generation every 21 days. I think it also brings us to the point of having a good diverse genetic make up in your hive by having a well mated queen from different stocks.

  2. #102
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    that makes perfect sense. many thanks jr.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  3. #103
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    Honey Bee Genetics....in 20 slides...15 seconds a slide.....5 minutes total:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v4Pj5oX5broEdA

    ...Unfortunately, some of the slides got scrambled in the video process....proper slides are here:
    http://beeuntoothers.com/WhereDoBeesComeFromFinal.pdf
    Last edited by deknow; 11-18-2012 at 04:51 PM.

  4. #104
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    perfect dean, i learned something new today. many thanks all.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  5. #105
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    Question: would drones derived from laying workers add to the gene pool available in DCAs? Would laying workers produce drones of greater variation than the workers Mother would have? Or similar?
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  6. #106
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    perfect dean, i learned something new today. many thanks all.
    Me too. I learned something about bee genetics and what Dean looks like.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    i'll take a stab at it mark.

    the laying worker's drone offspring would get the genetics from the random splitting of the laying worker's dna. so, genetically, these drones would provide genes at mating in the exact same way as if they came from a mated queen, (i think)

    in the practical sense though, they may not be able to contribute that sperm. for example, if they are too small and undeveloped to go through the physical act.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Me too. I learned something about bee genetics and what Dean looks like.

    was that you dean?
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  9. #109
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    Yes...that was for a group of crafters (held at MIT). Most of the talks were about quilting, pie making, starting an artist collective, etc. Each slide was timed for 15 seconds, so if you get behind, you are sunk! I spent days preparing for this...I can prepare a 3 hour talk in about an hour...this was challenging.

    deknow

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    you do well in front of a crowd. liked the 'special hug'.

    planning to order your book. thanks again.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  11. #111
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    Great presentation. Everything you wanted to know about bee breeding but were afraid to ask.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    do you think one could find two genetically identical indivuals in a colony?
    jr, i cornered dr. latshaw on the main forum (pollen sub formulations thread), and asked him this question.

    he said he thought it would be unlikely.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  13. #113
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    Sep 2011
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    Reno, NV
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    Very nice Dean. I am still a little tickled I could see that there is a clone in the mix. genetics are not easy to sort through.

    The very important thing I believe there is in all this for the average beekeeper as they are concerned with bottle necking or reduction of gene pool.

    The queen has 32 chromosomes. I would like to go back and address this since it was brought up. Genes a are put together in strings. These strings of genes are then called Chromosomes. it is this chromosome that is passed on to the offspring. They say a queen bee has 32 chromosomes. but that still does not tell us how many genes are on all those chromosomes. They also say there are as many as 15,000 genes associated with the honey bee. No single bee is capable of having all 15,000 if they did their woudl never be a problem with inbreeding or loss of genetic diversity.

    The entire issue over bottle necking or reducing the gene pool is the loss of these 15,000 genes. we don't want to loose them. we actually want to ad to them.

    What is a chromosome and what is a gene is really not that critical to this conversation. Understanding how you can loose those genes is. I believe it is far more important for the average beekeeper to understand that to have a large selection of those 15,000 genes requires that there be a large number of colonies in the area.

    I see that many beekeepers have a thinking along the lines of. I don't care if I have all 15,000 genes. I only care if I have the very best 500 or so. The problem with having only the very best 500 or so is that as soon as something comes along that those 500 or so genes cannot contend with. like varroa for example. all your bees get wiped out.

    What we want is to flood that 15,000 gene pool with varroa resistant genes. We want varroa resistance to be predominant gene throughout bees. Sort of like genes to have wings would be. Every bee has that.

    So can every bee have resistant genes? Theoretically yes. Many beekeepers might argue that. but yet they would have no problem thinking that African genes are perfectly capable of taking over every bee in existence. So if bad genes can be a problem. you can make good genes be a problem just the same.

    Some genes spread more readily than others. Dominant genes for example are easier to get into your bees and see the effect. Dominant genes can be a problem as well. such as in hygienic traits when all the genes associated with it are recessive. This causes a situation that you can't just get some hygienic genes in your bees and be good. you have to get all the other genes out. the only gene you can have in your bees is the hygienic ones.

    And this is exactly the situation I believe it is very important that even the hobby beekeepers has some understanding of genetics. That some situations require that you have pure bees. and that they remain pure. or a trait is completely lost. Africanization begins when even one gene from an African bee gets into your colony. Hygienic behavior happens only when you have purged every other non hygienic gene from your colony. It is obviously easier to Americanize bees than make housekeepers out of them.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    The average beekeeper? I doubt that the average beekeeper is concerned about bottlenecking of the ngene pool. I dare say that the average beekeeper wants decent inexpensively priced queens available when they want or need them. They may want a certain strain, but mostly they want live queens as early as possible.

    Why7 does the average American beekeeper need to know anything more than how to keep bees? Why do we need to know Bee Breeding and Bee Genetics all that deep. I found Dean's illustration and explanation informative, but I could not regergitate it back to you. Basically I understand it when I hear it. That's enough for me. Am I going to make some mistakes by not knowing genetics any deeper?
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    Mark I totally agree with where the average beekeepers concerns are. Are they making mistakes. well to look at the past and consider that today is a result of everything that has come before. Yes they have been and are making horrendous mistakes. IF you look at the honey bee and it's resent history. Since the 1930's. bees have been in a declining state at the very same time that almost every other area of agriculture has made tremendous at one time considered impossible advancements. this not only indicates mistakes. it indicates tremendous mistakes. That is just my opinion.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  16. #116
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    Dec 2002
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    Fayetteville, Arkansas
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I doubt that the average beekeeper is concerned about bottlenecking of the ngene pool.
    The average Bond Method beekeeper really needs to produce their own queens and not rely on outside sources. Bottlenecking is something that should be considered, but unless you have thousands of hives and can dominate an area with your own stock, chances are it's not going to happen. Open mating will deal with all the problems, and if you get an inbred queen with a spotty brood pattern, simply replace her as you would any other sub-par queen.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  17. #117
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    Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    Solomon, what you're saying there is in keeping with my initial thought.

    I can't see how one beekeeper practicing survival of the fittest, or "Bond method" selection is going to make a dent in the gene pool of the area, unless as you say, they are a very large operation which actually controlled the majority of the bees in the region.

    Mike Palmer's point about the initial infestation of Acarapis in North America is different. There, you have all the bees of a region being hit by the same selector - the same pressure. In that case, all the bees who can't deal with that one pressure are dying. And in that situation, sure - you're likely to be losing more of the genetic diversity.

    But I just don't see it in smaller, local or individual beekeeper scenarios. Even if you have a hundred hives in an area where there are other beekeepers and plenty of open mating, I don't see how your activities are going to dent the gene pool.

    Adam

  18. #118
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    Sep 2005
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    Greensboro, North Carolina
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Bottlenecking is something that should be considered, but unless you have thousands of hives and can dominate an area with your own stock, chances are it's not going to happen.
    I believe bottlenecking is more likely to occur with someone who operates less hives, than with someone who operates more hives (within reason). If you are operating 20 hives on your 10 acre mini-farm, you very well might be maintaining 80% of the colonies that exists within your "mating radius." Possibly more, possibly less, depending on your particular area. Any practices you exercise would thus affect 80% of the gene pool (theoretically, and simplified significantly). However, if you are operating 2,000 colonies, you are not going to be able to place them on one contiguous piece of property (unless you own several hundred contiguous acres). You are going to have to break the colonies up into groups of 50 or so, place them here there and everywhere, stretched out over (possibly) half a county. With all those hives stretched out, you have a greater chance of interacting with other hives (ferals, other beekeepers). While you may have more hives, since you are stretched out over such a greater area you may have a smaller effect on the "mating radius" of each individual yard. Again, depending on location. But who's to say the 50 colonies you are managing in a (potentially) highly bee traveled area is having a greater affect on the gene pool than the 20 you are maintaining on a (potentially) less bee traveled area.

    Additionally, if you are maintaining 2,000 colonies, you are likely moving them around, interacting them with dozens of times more colonies than they would be interacting with if left alone at the "home location". Which is exactly what is occurring to the 20 hives kept on the same 10 acres.

    Plus, the 2,000 colony operation has a much larger selection pool from which to choose from, further reducing the chances of having a significantly noticeable genetic bottlenecking.

  19. #119
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    Daniel,
    Please clarify what you see as mistakes. It seems like back in the mid1980s we had a choice, treat or don't treat. Steve Taber remarked that if we did not treat that in 30 years the bees and the mites would work things out. Not much of a choice for those who owned any sizeable number of beehives and not a good option for those dependent on honeybee provided pollination.

    So please tell me where you see thge mistakes.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  20. #120
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    Dec 2002
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    Fayetteville, Arkansas
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    Default Re: Live and Let Die - Do you really reduce the gene pool?

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialkayme View Post
    If you are operating 20 hives on your 10 acre mini-farm, you very well might be maintaining 80% of the colonies that exists within your "mating radius."
    This is a huge assumption upon which the rest of your theory is predicated. While I cannot speak for the rest of beekeeperdom, I know for a fact it's not the case in my area. Furthermore, if you are breeding locally adapted bees, you are not controlling much, you are only a part of it. I'd love to hear from another Bond Method beekeeper on this, but I may be the only one stupid enough to talk about what I do.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

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