benign beekeeping?

[Acebird]

Dead mites on the bottom board of a failing hive disappear pretty quickly. Scavengers of all sorts collect them. In our part of the country ants and yellow jackets make short work of them.

This doesn't appear to happen in my neck of the woods. If I didn't dump and kill the live ones in my trays I wouldn't have a good indication of whether the fall is increasing or decreasing. Also, there are no ants or wasps in the dead of winter when the hive dies. I will give Solomon the benefit of doubt that he can tell if mites did his hive in. I could be wrong.

[squarepeg]

They collapsed after I moved them after doing fine untreated for five years. Give me a theory that fits the evidence.

fair enough. some have been offered already.

but let's suppose these hives happened to have some resistance to varroa, and were never really challenged in their original location. then they were moved, and ended up robbing out other hives collapsing with varroa. in the process of robbing, they picked up a lot of mites, brought them home, and were challenged with a load that even their resistance could not handle.

if you didn't do mite counts, what other method(s) were used to determine the absence of mites?

[beemandan]

Also, there are no ants or wasps in the dead of winter when the hive dies.

As of today, here I see plenty of both.

I will give Solomon the benefit of doubt that he can tell if mites did his hive in. I could be wrong.

Keep in mind, I never said that mites did his hives in. I do strongly believe that mites are part of nearly any collapse and small, sickly winter clusters are typical symptoms.
At least Ace, it appears that you know you have mites in your hives. And if those hives fail, I hope you will accept that mites contributed to their demise.

[jbeshearse]

is there any way to establish the presence of mites other than a mite count? i shook out a dink last week that was down to a few hundred bees. an alcohol wash revealed more than one mite per bee! but there were none with deformed wings, and none seen on the bottom board.

Squarepeg

I look at brood patterns. When I see any significant spotting and/or workers uncapping brood it is usually a sign of mite. Then you test for them if you are so inclined. I did not test this fall. When I pulled honey and extracted I noticed spotty patterns. Then when uncapping the honey I had a few drone cells in the comb(I don't use excluders, except during the tupelo bloom) I saw mites on the drone brood I pulled. So I treated with apiguard.

[squarepeg]

thanks jb, nice to have another 'clue'.

[Acebird]

I hope you will accept that mites contributed to their demise.

That and me putting supers on too fast and taking too much honey on two of my hives. If we have another light winter they might make it otherwise they are toast.

[Acebird]

Squarepeg

I look at brood patterns. When I see any significant spotting and/or workers uncapping brood it is usually a sign of mite.

Hmmm, I just learned something today... hygenetic behavior. If you are following a philosophy of no treatments you might want a spotty brood pattern.

[jbeshearse]

Hmmm, I just learned something today... hygenetic behavior. If you are following a philosophy of no treatments you might want a spotty brood pattern.

Ace,

You never really want a spotty brood pattern. But yes, it is a sign of hygienic behavior and pretty much all my hives exhibit it. But I still treat if the mite levels look to be too severely depleting the overall hive populations. In my area a weakened hive will succumb to SHB.

I have only purchased 4 queens (six if you include the two that came with my original purchase hives) in three years. The balance are from my selected best performers and the cutouts and swarms I collect( mostly cutouts).

So what do you guys think. A should I just let a hygenic hive that is weakened succumb or treat. You know my answer so answer this for yourself not me

[squarepeg]

looks like sol had to run, hopefully he will share his methods of determining the presence or absence of mites later.

jb, i'm pretty new at this, so this is not from experience, but....

what i think i will do if i encounter that situation, and i probably will, is....

pinch that queen, wait for the brood to emerge, treat for the mites, and requeen from a stronger more resistant colony or bring in a queen bred for resistance.

[Ian]

Yes I know what your referring to Brian. Like I said long cold spells can prevent the hive from accessing honey. Especially if there is brood present late winter. But I will also tell you that I have not had a single strong wintering colony starve like this. Only the smaller ones. We will sometimes get cold snaps that hover in the -30 degrees C for weeks on end, 5 year ago or so we had a three week streak that our daily highs did not rise above -32 degrees C. That year I was wintering outdoors still and most all of my small hives died, but the larger hives chugged along!
Most winters there are mild breaks that allow the hives to reorganize

Back when this happened to my second hive I didn't know what the other possibilities could bee. I have seen it explained as a set of circumstances where the bees consume the honey upwards normally. If they eat up far enough and there is no break in the weather where they can break cluster long enough to move the honey from below they starve because they have reached the cover so they can't go up anymore. I would also say that it is late in the winter, maybe early spring where brood is being raised so they can't leave yet their need for food is greater. These conditions will not happen in the south because there are not extended periods of cold weather. Is it a beekeeper mistake? Probably, but what can you do or not do to prevent it?

[Michael Palmer]

But I will also tell you that I have not had a single strong wintering colony starve like this. Only the smaller ones.

Same here Ian. Strong colonies don't get stuck on one side of the hive and starve...or "freeze" with honey a frame away. They have a large enough cluster to be in contact with the honey.

[TWall]

OK, so what do you, Michael and Ian, consider a strong colony? And, when do you decide that?

Is 8-10 frames of bees late summer/early fall strong? Do you like to see stronger?

Tom

[jim lyon]

OK, so what do you, Michael and Ian, consider a strong colony? And, when do you decide that?

Is 8-10 frames of bees late summer/early fall strong? Do you like to see stronger?

Tom

Tom: If you have a full box of bees in a fairly tight cluster I would say you have a pretty strong hive anything more than that would be a bonus. I would think if they have ample stores and reasonable protection from the elements that they would be a lock to make it through an Ohio winter. I am assuming varroa levels to be fairly low to have come into winter with a cluster that size.

[Ian]

Whats your thoughts on that?

Its not whether your hives are 10 plus frames or not, thats not the point. Its whether or not you hives have meet your targets strengths.
Ill give you some examples

I winter in Canada, COLD. Now when I was wintering outside, my target population was 10 frames of bees plus. Anything entering at 10 frames I would consider a sure bet to survive. Now I winter indoors, my target population is 5 frames of bees plus, anything entering at that or above I would consider high chances to make it through. I also winter nucs, I want 3 frames with them.
I would never be able to winter a nuc entering winter with three frames outdoors here,

The point is, if the hive is managed to be a certain target strength according to your area's "climatic rules" and the hive misses the target, then something went wrong along the way. That hive entering winter smaller than was expected has a higher chance to die, cold and hungry.

OK, so what do you, Michael and Ian, consider a strong colony? And, when do you decide that?

Is 8-10 frames of bees late summer/early fall strong? Do you like to see stronger?

Tom

[sqkcrk]

OK, so what do you, Michael and Ian, consider a strong colony? And, when do you decide that?

Is 8-10 frames of bees late summer/early fall strong? Do you like to see stronger?

Tom

I would say that if you had a double deep hive w/ a colony when the two boxes are tipped forward you could see the bees hanging below the bottomk bars of the bottom deep and then when you removed the cover(s) you coulkd see bees between the frames in the upper deep, that would be a strong colony, in Oct. or Nov.

[Ian]

>>look at the feral colonies, they are getting by just fine without any intervention......

and related to the point of the topic,
those ferals had to meet certain targeted strengths and targeted disease control on their own accord. If they didnt measure up in anyway, the good old arm of mother nature would kill them off. Those hives would starve inches away from honey also, but it wasnt starvation that killed them. Thats the only point I was trying to make

[Solomon Parker]

Sorry to leave you hanging there boys. I went to see a movie.

I don't have any solid proof that those hives didn't die of mites or problems related to mites. That wasn't the point. Nor did I ever say if anyone had been paying attention that I have no mites. The point was that where they were they were fine and when they were moved they died. The isolation argument is irrelevant because they are more isolated here not less. The small cluster argument is irrelevant because they weren't small clusters. But they did die and as far as my methods go, the only response is move on with the living.

[ralittlefield]

Is it a beekeeper mistake? Probably, but what can you do or not do to prevent it?

Adding frames of brood to weaker colonies earlier in the season will help ensure that they have strong clusters in the winter.

[sqkcrk]

>>look at the feral colonies, they are getting by just fine without any intervention......

Show me the studys. Show me the data. Show me the books. I think there are a lot of assumptions about feral colonies amongst beekeepers. I think it is safe to say that feral colonys exist w/out beekeeper intervention, but to say they exist, or survive, "just fine" w/out intervention may be a stretch. Unless you consider how long a colony continually occupys a cavity in a live state.

What is "just fine'?

[sqkcrk]

>>look at the feral colonies, they are getting by just fine without any intervention......

What is "just fine" in relation to "getting by" in the unmanaged environment? I think we may be making assumptions about the state of feral colonies which may not be true. Where are the studys?