benign beekeeping?

[Solomon Parker]

Mark, can you please explain why the first sentence is untrue?

[sqkcrk]

AHB, aka Africanized honeybees were "created" by a retired USDA entomologist in Brazil in 1953. He was on a search for the right kind of bee to use in Brazil, so he gathered bees from all over the World. One of those was the African bee, originally from North of South Africa, (apis scutellata, if I remember correctly). The African bee bred w/ other bees in the area thereby creating Africanized honeybees. Africanized because they were no longer African, but European bees bred w/ African bees, making them Africanized.

Africanized honeybee did not comne about naturally.

That's how I understand it.

[jim lyon]

I would love to hear an alternate explanation rather than just chuckling.

Something weakened those hives of that you can be sure and I am aware of no such malady as "cold starvation" syndrome or something on that order. I could sure speculate but that is about all it would be. Post #35 indicates to me that knowing why your hives perished isnt terribly important to you. Am I wrong in that assessment?

[Acebird]

A good hive doesnt starve with honey in the hive.

Back when this happened to my second hive I didn't know what the other possibilities could bee. I have seen it explained as a set of circumstances where the bees consume the honey upwards normally. If they eat up far enough and there is no break in the weather where they can break cluster long enough to move the honey from below they starve because they have reached the cover so they can't go up anymore. I would also say that it is late in the winter, maybe early spring where brood is being raised so they can't leave yet their need for food is greater. These conditions will not happen in the south because there are not extended periods of cold weather. Is it a beekeeper mistake? Probably, but what can you do or not do to prevent it?

[Solomon Parker]

Am I wrong in that assessment?

I generally like to know, but it's not terribly important to me. I just find it funny that no matter the symptoms, the prognosis is always mites. I know what mites look like and I know what a hive full of mites looks like. I know what a hive dying from mites looks like, and I've seen a hive with a profound mite infestation survive. But maybe you can't figure out what's going on because you aren't familiar with treatment-free bees, I don't know. I'm not willing to ascribe the death of a hive to mites when no trace of a mite can be found in that hive.

[beemandan]

They could not survive temperatures of 0 F, twenty degrees lower than to what they were accustomed.

no sign of disease or mites.

I don't waste time on mite counts and such.

What ‘sign’ are you using to make the statement then?
I can put Apiguard in a hive with a screened bottom board and slide an uncoated piece of corrugated plastic beneath. A few hours later there will be hundreds of dead mites on the plastic. I return it carefully…and a few days later check again…zero mites.
When I find a deadout it is rare that I see mites on the solid bottom boards. But I know there were mites in that hive. And I know that a parasite as devastating to a bee colony may or may not have been the direct cause of its collapse. But I know with certainty it was a factor.
Beekeepers, queen breeders and scientists have been working for decades to find a ‘mite resistant’ race. And along comes Sol with a few dozen hives and he’s convinced that he has the holy grail of beekeeping…. hives without mites.
Your hives have mites. Those mites take a toll. Unchecked, your overwintering bees will be especially heavily parasitized…the bees that need to be the most durable to successfully overwinter. Your clusters ultimately become too small and the lost vigor in those few surviving bees isn’t enough.
And disease? What do you mean 'no sign of disease'? You have absolutely no idea.
To paint it as a simple, black and white result of low temperatures is a case of denial.
I suppose chuckle was a poor choice of words.

[Solomon Parker]

Nature created the AHB. And we think she got it wrong. nearly completely and utterly wrong.

How do you come by that? It's an organism which is incredibly adept at inhabiting and dominating its niche in the ecosystem. If humans hadn't figured out clothes, we'd be similarly confined.

[Solomon Parker]

a case of denial.

You would think I hadn't heard all this before. But I have no such luck. I am beset upon at all sides by people much more willing to call me names and insult me rather than make a coherent argument while spouting off some theory that is uninformed as to the facts. I offer my experiences openly and honestly and I speak my mind about the world as I see it. All I have to offer is my experience.

I suppose chuckle was a poor choice of words.

It hasn't stopped you yet.

[jim lyon]

I generally like to know, but it's not terribly important to me. I just find it funny that no matter the symptoms, the prognosis is always mites. I know what mites look like and I know what a hive full of mites looks like. I know what a hive dying from mites looks like, and I've seen a hive with a profound mite infestation survive. But maybe you can't figure out what's going on because you aren't familiar with treatment-free bees, I don't know. I'm not willing to ascribe the death of a hive to mites when no trace of a mite can be found in that hive.

I only made a joking reference to mites because I knew you wouldnt accept that. My point is I that any guess I would make would be just that....a guess. My only clues are they died in 2008 within 2 years of a move from Oregon, they made it through one winter but not the second and we are sure varroa mites werent a factor even though you dont do any mite counts. Perhaps someone brighter than me can solve this.

[squarepeg]

is there any way to establish the presence of mites other than a mite count? i shook out a dink last week that was down to a few hundred bees. an alcohol wash revealed more than one mite per bee! but there were none with deformed wings, and none seen on the bottom board.

[Acebird]

Beekeepers, queen breeders and scientists have been working for decades to find a ‘mite resistant’ race.

Your worries are over. You should have gone to the Syracuse convention. The answer is Russians.

[Solomon Parker]

Also, just to clear up one point, they weren't small clusters.

But back on topic. I just try to share my experience and everybody gets all unhinged telling me about my bees.

[beemandan]

You don't test in any way but you insist that it's not mites or disease?

I am beset upon at all sides by people much more willing to call me names and insult me

This is your coherent rebuttal?

[Joes_bees]

I just try to share my experience and everybody gets all unhinged telling me about my bees.

Seems to be the norm on these forums. As soon as a thread so much as mentions a topic like Treatments, protective gear, screened bottom boards, etc. Everyone has to weigh in on that topic and abandon the original thread.

[squarepeg]

Also, just to clear up one point, they weren't small clusters.

But back on topic. I just try to share my experience and everybody gets all unhinged telling me about my bees.

from where i sit, it doesn't look like anyone is challenging your experiences, but rather your conclusion that it was the moving of the bees to blame for their collapse.

[beemandan]

but there were none with deformed wings, and none seen on the bottom board.

An alcohol wash is as good as it gets, in my opinion.
A lack of DWV is not a vindication of mite infestation. You can, and apparently did, have a serious mite load. The mites may, or may not carry the virus. Also, this time of year, if you have a 'dink' it probably has stopped brood production. Since the bees displaying DWV typically only survive a short time, you may have had some during active brooding but they have since died.
Dead mites on the bottom board of a failing hive disappear pretty quickly. Scavengers of all sorts collect them. In our part of the country ants and yellow jackets make short work of them.

[squarepeg]

many thanks dan, that makes sense.

[Solomon Parker]

This is your coherent rebuttal?

What's the point? If you're willing to insult me, there's no point in trying to explain anything to you. It's common decency.

[Solomon Parker]

but rather your conclusion that it was the moving of the bees to blame for their collapse.

They collapsed after I moved them after doing fine untreated for five years. Give me a theory that fits the evidence.

[beemandan]

I would love to hear an alternate explanation rather than just chuckling.

You asked for an opinion….and since I originally used the word chuckle, it seemed like you asked me. So I gave you a coherent opinion.

I am beset upon at all sides by people much more willing to call me names and insult me rather than make a coherent argument while spouting off some theory that is uninformed as to the facts.

everybody gets all unhinged telling me about my bees.

I only see one person who appears unhinged.
Again, if you don’t want an opinion…..simply, don't ask for one.