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benign beekeeping?

32K views 162 replies 25 participants last post by  Tyson Kaiser 
#1 · (Edited)
consider these frequently touted 'isms:

well, the bees have been taking care of themselves for millions of years......

or,

look at the feral colonies, they are getting by just fine without any intervention......

or,

i'm just letting them sort things out on their own.....

ect., ect.


these points of view are usually offered up as part of the (groan) treatment vs. (groan again) no treatment discussion.

i am interested in your opinion as to how much or how little man keeping bees in a hive affects the colony.

when compared to a feral colony (assume living in a tree), a kept colony (assume the hive gets inspected ocassionally and honey is harvested):

1. has a less insulated space to deal with
2. is torn apart from time to time
3. might have comb, brood, and/or resources taken from it
4. might have increased competition from more hives nearby
5. might have increased exposure to diseases and pests from more hives nearby
6. might have less than optimal nutrition if it is fed
7. might be moved from time to time
8. you get the idea

any thoughts?
 
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#2 ·
While I can say I believe in doing as little outright care as possible so as not to disturb my hives, I must say the bees do reap some definite benefits from being taken care of. They do not starve out during the winter and early spring. They have us to provide assistance with disease and other insect predation. ...I have found, from time to time, the remains of feral colonies that did not make it for reasons we might have prevented.
I will also say that you make a good point about the drawbacks of packing too many hives in a given location. This does lead to competition and conflict. The strongest hive that I ever had was a feral swarm that I captured years ago. They made plenty of honey year after year, until my neglect allowed wax moths to get established in the hive. That's a good example of too little care and poor management. It is embarassing.
LtlWilli
 
#3 ·
Most of the talks I've been giving recently begin with the basic needs of the bees, and then compares the treatment free approaches of Kirk Webster, Dee Lusby, and "the natural model (what the bees would be doing without us).
Everything we do as beekeepers has a cost as well as a benefit. Every gain we make with management (or treatments, for that matter), should be measured against what the bees do without the beekeeper (don't forget, that without a beekeeper, there is no "surplus" honey, as it is never harvested).
Here are some of the slides I've used recently on this topic:
Dee Lusby:
Desert Environment
Unique Genetics
90% Genetic Bottleneck
Swarms/Feral Stock
Walk Away Splits
Unlimited Broodnest
Small Cell Comb
Self Contained
Lack of Isolation Yard To Yard (AFB)
Lean and Resilient Business Model
Kirk Webster:
Vermont….Further North
Aggressive Splitting
Overwintering Nucs
Focused Breeding Program
Low Overhead
Largely Self Contained
Smaller Comb Size
No Feeding Of Production Colonies
Nature:
Smaller Colonies
Foundationless Comb w/ Original Broodnest Intact and “Unexpanded”
Plenty of drones
Prolific Reproduction
Hard Selection to the Environment…Boom And Bust
Hives Rarely Breached
Does Not Produce A Surplus
When we are teaching new beekeepers, we first outline the "the bee's needs", then move on to how beekeepers exploit the behavior of bees to redirect their reproductive energy into production of surplus honey. We try not to give a recipe for how to keep bees, but an understanding of what they need and what they are doing....oftentimes one's instinct is to try and stop the bees doing what they are trying to do, when helping them accomplish their goals is often a better option.

deknow
 
#4 ·
I feel that the beekeeper may or may not help the bees. It all depends on the situation. Wild hives are the coveted bees for a lot of beekeepers. So how does it affect the bees when you remove them from a tree or house or where ever after they have been thriving for years?
A fiend got gifted a hive that has been ontouched for 6 years. No manipulation what-so-ever. So it would seem like these bees are genetically gifted. He tried to do splits and other such things to promote the genetics, but he has ended up with two hives with Georgia queens and one that is the original queen. In my opinion, he messes with them too much and may end up killing the hives all together.
Would the hive been fine left as is? Probably so...are they better off in his yard? probably not.

But I have captured a small swarm late in the years that was probably destined to failure...With proper feeding, they turned out to be a prosperous hive.

My ideas are my own, I believe them and have no science to back them up, but I believe that it is over-manipulation, and lack of diverse genetics has been the bee problems in the last several years. I believe too much medication plays a factor in honeybee demise, but does that mean you should not treat them? I don't, but who's to say it is right?

All beekeeping has a learning curve and I would hope that the last twenty years of bees dying would be a lesson for bee keepers.
 
#5 ·
Deknow,

Couple of items in your nature slide I was hoping you could expand upon :

- Smaller colonies - Having watched a ton of videos, (Thankx JP), and done a few myself, I wonder how this conclusion was reached as it has not been my experience.
- No surplus - If surplus is defined as more than they will consume through winter, again, not my experience, I removed several colonies this season that netted honey in the hundreds of #'s. My feeling is that they will pack it away as long as there is space.

Understanding that my experience is strictly anecdotal I am interested in the science.

Cheers,
Drew
 
#6 ·
Deknow,
- Smaller colonies - Having watched a ton of videos, (Thankx JP), and done a few myself, I wonder how this conclusion was reached as it has not been my experience.
If we are to believe the work the Tom Seeley has done, given a choice, a swarm will choose a cavity about the volume of a single 10 frame deep box. In nature, it is very unlikely that this cavity will get any bigger while the bees are in occupation....thus, they will fill the cavity and swarm before they have produced 100lbs of honey....there is no room for it.

Much of this natural habitat (large, hollow trees) don't exist anymore...and instead, bees move into human made structures....which tend to be bigger in volume.....the bees simply don't have a choice in many cases. In a larger cavity, they do build larger colonies, and there may well be honey that is stored for several years.....but this is really because the cavity size they prefer is less available. The goal of a colony is not to live for 3 years or 7 years, it is to reproduce as quickly and as successfully as possible....they prefer a smaller cavity so they can fill it and swarm.

I've done removals in Florida....although you do find large colonies in walls, there are more small colonies in water meter boxes (built into the ground...a bit bigger than a nuc box), and in telephone pedestals (a small cavity in PVC pipe).

We tend to see larger colonies in removal videos because they are more dramatic. It is very (very) common to find empty spray cans of pesticide at the site of a removal (an effort to kill the bees without calling a beekeeper or exterminator).....large colonies tend to survive this, and an expert is called...a small colony is probably more likely to succumb to the spray, and an expert is never called.

deknow
 
#7 ·
many thanks to all for these excellent replies, and i agree with all that has been said here so far.

it's hard not to acknowledge that we put our bees at somewhat of a disadvantage as compared to their feral cousins. but at the same time we do offer some advantages through sound husbandry.

dean, i am absolutely intrigued by your approach to teaching beginners! i wish we had something like your course around here. i have been playing with the idea of teaching intro to beekeeping at our local community college. may i borrow from you?
 
#8 ·
I think you touched on one of the biggest things people have done to affect the average bee colony.

Transportation.

Nature has a balance and part of that balance is maintained by the proximity something can travel. Humans have designed all kinds of crazy ways to travel around the world far faster than our legs would ever take us. As we did that, we brought honeybees with us, with the honeybees came with their diseases and pests. As a result we have hives that are coming in contact with diseases and pests from all around the world. Nature never intended to cause that kind of burden on one hive.

non intervention beekeeping has always sounded to me like "We screwed up, Mother Nature, can you fix it?"
 
#10 ·
non intervention beekeeping has always sounded to me like "We screwed up, Mother Nature, can you fix it?"
Mother nature will fix it but the fix could be extinction followed by something to replace it. The unknown is how long will the replacement take? There are very few beekeepers that are not looking for something in return. In most cases it is not for the bees benefit.
 
#9 ·
Beekeeping is a compromise between the honeybees and the beekeeper.

I think it is obvious that bees are kept in less than their ideal conditions so we are able to benefit from their hard work.
I think it's important we all keep asking ourselves these questions squarepeg poses so that as we can make beekeeping less of a compromise for the bees and still be fortunate enough to share in the fruits of their labor.
 
#11 ·
i am interested in your opinion as to how much or how little man keeping bees in a hive affects the colony.
It affects them in a number of ways of which I will explain a few, and many ways I will not or that we have no knowledge of. It's kind of like quantum theory, if you observe it, you have changed the outcome (this is a simplistic understanding of course).

We decrease reproduction, perhaps slowing adaptation, but certain genetic lines we expand far far beyond what is possible in nature, therefore we influence the genetics of the population.

We prop up many hives that would die normally, leading to more of the above. I don't know if it is true, but I've heard it said that 90% of swarms die their first winter. Swarms we catch, we try to coddle at least through their first winter, significantly increasing that survival rate.

We keep hives in much closer proximity to other hives than found in nature, possibly leading to increased disease spread. Good for adaptation, but not so much if you treat.

We move hives perhaps thousands of miles, which I have found is extremely stressful, leading to dieoffs. On the other hand, if the bees are moved the same places every year, the effect may be minimized.

Hives are routinely requeened. To my eye, if it's been requeened, it's not the same hive. It interrupts any adaptation that might have been achieved with successive generations of the same family line.

That's all I have for now, perhaps I will chime in again later with more.

What's the opposite of benign beekeeping, malignant beekeeping?:lpf:
 
#21 ·
We move hives perhaps thousands of miles, which I have found is extremely stressful, leading to dieoffs.

What's the opposite of benign beekeeping, malignant beekeeping?:lpf:
I don't recall ever reading anything you ever wrote about moving bees thousands of miles. When did you do that and what were your observations?

The opposite of benign beekeeping could be benign neglect.
 
#12 ·
This thread is starting to feel like we are hearing religious statements as opposed to statements about practical beekeeping.

On my own land I "get" that quality habit and forage are of prime importance. I have a field of wild blueberries somewhere between 5 and 10 acres and I think it important to have it be a healthy place for my bees to visit and good habitat for native pollinators. But (you knew there was a but coming) desiring balance is not the same thing as achieving it. The Blueberry field is slowly being taken over by sweet fern, wild roses, goldenrod, white pine, tamarack and alder. Biannual mowing isn't keeping the field free of these plants. Burning may be an option if I can be assured that it won't cause difficulties for the native pollinators.

At my local club meeting last night more than a few people were singing the praises of roundup. I don't want to go there but obviously I know it is available.

My point is that if I am determined to keep natural succession from happening and the field productive (as a blueberry field), I need to take action. To me it is the same as beekeeping. I like having honey to sell and in this climate if a hive swarms it generally does not have the population necessary to make surplus honey for me to harvest. So I do things - like open up the brood nest - to try and discourage swarming.

I don't think opening the brood nest to prevent swarming is evil although I wouldn't be surprised if some who have contributed to this thread think it is.

I try to be a good steward of my bees. Sometimes that means taking action (medicating) to keep them from dieing. Sometimes it means sliding a box back to provide additional ventilation and another entrance.

I can't think of any beekeepers who enjoy using miticides and other medications on their bees. We'd all like to be completely treatment free - but there is the age old quandary - bees in a hive represent an investment: I can either keep livestock, or I can look at deadstock (and cry.)
 
#13 ·
My point is that if I am determined to keep natural succession from happening and the field productive (as a blueberry field), I need to take action.
Logic would suggest that you wouldn't keep bees. You would mulch up the blueberries and hire someone to bring in bees to pollinate. That is how they are doing it in my area. Blueberries tend to attract bears, another issue with cultivating blueberries and bees.
Also, between the rows they nicely mow so people can come pick the berries easily.
 
#14 ·
In the late 60’s, long before varroa reached the US, Tom Seeley studied new feral bee colonies. As I remember it, he determined that new colonies, the product of feral swarms had about a 25% chance of surviving until the next season. 75% failed….and this was before mites! My point is that feral bees live a pretty precarious existence in the best of times..
 
#16 ·
That is so true---we do NOT need another pro and con debate. Thus far, I have to say that this has been a most congenial disposition. It is good to read such well-written responses with civil tones being the main discourse coloring. We have all maybe gone past the argumentative state and dwell now upon well stated points thoughout . I applaud your reluctance to argue vigorously.
LtlWilli
 
#18 ·
I see beekeeping as a system of providing the bees conditions conducive to the production of honey and wax while propagating hives I like and not propagating hives I don't.

This requires considerable knowledge of what the bees are doing, why they do it, and of what is required to get them to store honey rather than swarm.

Obviously the less they are disturbed the better, but it's necessary to both understand how a hive works and reproduces and to intervene when "bad" things are happening (disease, unwanted swarming, etc). I've heard stories of people doing deep inspections several times week all summer, which I think would be rather deleterious to the hive (so say nothing of the risk of squishing a queen!), but never inspecting is also bad, since you are likely to miss something that needs intervention.

Regular checks for space, proper brood production, good health, and hive pests with whatever action is necessary to keep the bees "happy" is what I prescribe -- might be a simple as lifting the top cover to see if the supers are full, might be as much as a full frame by frame inspection if the hive isn't behaving properly. Hard to give an exact schedule, but I left mine pretty much alone this year. I'll need to fix some bad comb next spring (they didn't draw some foundationless frames well, lots of bridge comb as a result) but otherwise no major problems. I'll be removing one frame from one hive because the foundation bulged badly, I've fixed that since all brood frames are now cross-wired.

I do NOT recommend tossing some bees in a box and waiting to collect honey, though -- "bee having" ain't the same thing as beekeeping, and everyone I know who's tried the "hands off, bees know what they are doing" style of beekeeping in this area has been severely disappointed. It's a real struggle for new hives to get through the summer dearth without help, and hive losses due to starvation are a real problem if the hive doesn't take off really fast in the spring. All that dry weather in July, August, and September (and occasionally into November) results in no stores for winter if one does not feed, and at least two of my friends have quit beekeeping due to starvation losses several years running. Never did persuade them bees can starve on their own....

Peter
 
#20 ·
Beekeeping takes control of the reproduction aspect of a hive. The most obvious way is by preventing swarms and producing splits at a convenient time for the beekeeper.

Another way the beekeeper does this is by using foundation which promotes worker sized cells and deters drone production. This natural ratio of workers to drones is necessary for a hive that is trying to increase it's presence in the gene pool based on it's success.
 
#22 ·
any thoughts?
One effect of humans keeping bees in beehives is that humans have been able to take honeybees w/ them whenever humans have expanded their territory beyond their original place of residence. And, the tgransportation of those beehives has given you who read this your bees.

Now maybe if you really want to practice benign beekeeping you will simply give me all of your bees. From where I sit, the only way to be a benign beekeeper is to not tend to any bees, don't move them, don't have anymore than one per every ten acres, and keep them up in a tree 10 to 15 feet off of the ground, facing S or SSE, and don't ever work them.
 
#24 ·
About 5 years ago I responded to a craigslist post wherein a man was giving away all his boxes and frames. I brought them home with the intention of one day taking the equipment to the county (I'm in the big city). I stacked the equipment in 4 stacks in my backyard and forgot about them. Several years later I took a look and found that I had bees in all 4 stacks.
At this point I was still not ready to move the equipment to the country and the city did not allow beekeeping, so I just let them 'do their thing'.
Jan 2011 the city passed an ordinance allowing 2 hives. In late spring the city code enforcement guy came around and told me to get those bees registered and legal. So I became a beekeeper. Being required to reduce the number of hives to 2 I gave 2 to my neighbor. We moved 2 of the stacks to his house and I began actually taking care of my 2.
When I opened the hives for the first time, I found some comb that was messed up the the majority was built onto the frames that were in the boxes.
These bees were doing just fine without any help. They have been through some trauma since I intervened, but have bounced back and are again doing fine.
Were they better off before me? I can't say, but do know that before I took a hand in their lives, they had more honey they could keep.
Thus far I have not done anything to or for them other than try to give them the space I think they need. When I did the last mite drop I counted 3.
 
#27 ·
I begin with the basic premise that comparing bees from an apiary with feral bees is like comparing a dog with a wolf. This difference if it exists would be solely the result of man keeping bees.

The above point does bring into the frame the issue of "Are bees domesticated"? In past conversations that I have seen on this subject directly. It is fairly well argued that they are not. Yet very few beekeepers would hesitate to admit bees do not stand much of a chance of survival if you don't care for them. If domestication is defined as an animals dependance on mans care. then it is hard to argue that bees have not become domesticated. Not all bees any more than all Canine have become domesticated.

In addition I believe that mans intervention has drastically altered the life of the honey bee. and in doing so has impacted the well being of the honey be. IT is very unlikely that man with his intentions has impacted the be in a positive way. We consider excess honey production a good thing. since we think it is good. we also tend to think it is good for the bees. it is not. it is a complete removal and unintentional behavior from what a honey bee should be. It is inefficient which that alone is a radical departure from any other behavior associated with bees.

This and many other differences keeping bees makes are not only significant. they are most likely harmful to the bees. I cannot even begin to make a complete list of impacts. but here are a few. many of which have already been mentioned.

Interruption of the hive. not only frequently or not frequently. but at all ever. This introduces conditions and stresses that the bees are in no way naturally equipped for. In nature colonies that get invaded are killed. It is the result of poor colony location skills and is eliminated by natures selection process.

Limited genetic pool. This one is probably fr more devastating than it is given credit for.

Frequent replacement of queens. Tampering with an already poor genetic pool.

Selection of traits that we consider beneficial, and even worse making the mistake of thinking what we consider beneficial is good for the bees. This then lends to the likelihood that beekeepers will breed their bees straight into the jaws of disaster, eyes wide open, thinking all is well.

I have seen it mentioned in several places that bees will naturally select a cavity roughly the size of a 10 frame deep. In reality bees seldom get to choose optimum anything. In fact always having the optimum woudl be a negative. a huge negative. natural selection thrives on diversity. Colonies that range anywhere from baseball size cavities to small sheds is what makes mother natures way work out. that man is locked into the best way to do anything, always, is one of the primary reasons he impacts everything around him negatively. Nature does not have maximization as a goal. never has. Survival in as many various conditions as possible. and it will try them all. Most will fail.

Nature created the AHB. And we think she got it wrong. nearly completely and utterly wrong.

We on the other hand strive to make puppy dogs of the honey bee. Necessary. yes for our purposes. but int eh process we have caused a lot of damage. we have caused a highly dependent bee. and we cannot like our dogs. pen them in and protect them from an environment they are no longer suitable to survive in. It would be comparable turning your dog loose to run with wolves. But to some degree I think that is exactly what we have done. We breed dogs that must run with wolves. We are seeing the results.

Bees that cannot resist parasites that infest them.
bees that cannot survive diseases that they are subjected to.
Bees that cannot survive winter.
Bees that do not take optimal advantage of their environment.
On the issue of an apiary and colonies that are located to close together. I tend to look at them as a single mega colony with multiple queens. What sort of impact is that having. Sort of like subjecting bees to living in projects. A getto evolves. Still necessary.

I don't think beekeepers should stop keeping bees any more than I think people should stop keeping dogs as pets. But I do think that beekeepers need to be far more clear in just what they are keeping, and what is necessary for it's care. If feeding and treatment are necessary. then that is the result of making dogs out of wolves.
 
#32 ·
>>Cold starvation. The cluster gets too cold to move and starves on the comb. Plenty of honey, no sign of disease or mites.

As long as the hive is in good shape, I have never had a hive die of starvation with honey in the hive. I have had lots of hive die of starvation within inches of honey but they were destined for death anyway. A good hive doesnt starve with honey in the hive.
 
#44 ·
A good hive doesnt starve with honey in the hive.
Back when this happened to my second hive I didn't know what the other possibilities could bee. I have seen it explained as a set of circumstances where the bees consume the honey upwards normally. If they eat up far enough and there is no break in the weather where they can break cluster long enough to move the honey from below they starve because they have reached the cover so they can't go up anymore. I would also say that it is late in the winter, maybe early spring where brood is being raised so they can't leave yet their need for food is greater. These conditions will not happen in the south because there are not extended periods of cold weather. Is it a beekeeper mistake? Probably, but what can you do or not do to prevent it?
 
#33 ·
Sol: You do understand that "cold starvation" is a result and not an actual malady dont you? Its pretty hard to say four years removed from the fact what actually caused the death of your hives. Wait a minute.....something is coming into view in my crystal ball........yes, yes! I see small clusters..... I think their are five of them. They appear to be very small, yes very small clusters, looking closer..... trying to figure out what the problem might have been.......poof! Darn it!!!! It just went black on me. Ah well! Probably varroa. :D
 
#35 · (Edited)
Ian, I would put it this way: Good hives don't die. That's perhaps the cornerstone of my philosophy.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter why they die, unless I caused it, therefore I don't waste time on mite counts and such. It's their responsibility to stay alive, mine is to keep from killing them.
 
#36 ·
Ian, I would put it this way: Good hives don't die. That's perhaps the cornerstone of my philosophy.
yup,
I always get a kick out of beekeepers claiming hive death to "they starved inches away from the honey!" Unless those hives have been exposed to the depths of winter for weeks on end, they did not starve because they couldnt reach the honey, they were not in shape to winter at all!
 
#38 ·
I've always ran 9 frames in my brood chamber, gives me more space to work and I feel like it's less likely I'll squish her majesty.

In this case I'm increasing the bee space from how the hive originally built the comb which I'm sure changes how the brood is heated and cooled.
 
#43 ·
Something weakened those hives of that you can be sure and I am aware of no such malady as "cold starvation" syndrome or something on that order. I could sure speculate but that is about all it would be. Post #35 indicates to me that knowing why your hives perished isnt terribly important to you. Am I wrong in that assessment?
 
#42 ·
AHB, aka Africanized honeybees were "created" by a retired USDA entomologist in Brazil in 1953. He was on a search for the right kind of bee to use in Brazil, so he gathered bees from all over the World. One of those was the African bee, originally from North of South Africa, (apis scutellata, if I remember correctly). The African bee bred w/ other bees in the area thereby creating Africanized honeybees. Africanized because they were no longer African, but European bees bred w/ African bees, making them Africanized.

Africanized honeybee did not comne about naturally.

That's how I understand it.
 
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