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2012 Dieback Already?

105K views 327 replies 52 participants last post by  JRG13 
#1 ·
I have heard from a beekeeper here in NY that he has been hearing of and seeing dieback in his outfit and others across the Nation, many different parts and in parts of Canada. How about y'all? Seen or heard something similar? What's going on? What are your observations or conversations about this like?

Is it mites? One guy I corresponded w/ thinks it has to do w/ the mild Winter (11/12) which was not only easy on the bees but the mites too, allowing an earlier buildup in the colonies.

Thanks for your input.
 
#159 ·
jean-marc -
I was not clear. The good flows where from plants that normally do not produce. They only appear good because the normal plants, basswood, alfalfa, Sweet clover, where such a failure this year. I blame the weather for effecting the plants in a non typical manner. It may well be possible that the pollen quality has also been disrupted. Should we be doing monthly tests on the pollen to see if what is normally good pollen now no longer has the full complements of amino acids?

Crazy Roland
 
#160 ·
I sent a sample of bees taken from one of my yards that seemed to "fall apart" mid to late September.
My mite counts this fall were under threshold, my nosema counts were low and over the most part all my hives went into winter looking good,
except this one yard that had about 50% of the hives die off Mid Sept.

I had found a queen in one of the dead hives and took a sample of bees from the other dead or dying hives

The queen came back as having no Nosema spore counts
The sample of bees came back with mid to high spore counts

Why was nosema high in this particular yard,.?
Did it have anything to do with my losses,.?
 
#162 ·
O.K. John, I click on your link and then on queens.
Here is YOUR statement about your queens and focus:

>>Old Sol Enterprises is a family run business that has striven to promote sustainable agriculture and a healthy environment since its inception in 1997.

The pursuit of these endeavors has taken our family down many interesting and enlightening paths which have allowed Old Sol's founder, John Jacob, to follow his deepest convictions by expanding and utilizing his educational background (B.S. in Biology, with Minors in Chemistry and Economics).​



We recognize that sustainable agriculture and a clean, healthy environment will require our global culture adopting a new paradigm; especially in developing countries. Elements of this new model must include an Integrate​d Pest Management (IPM) approach to pest management, support of local businesses, and many elements of organic farming.

The consequences of the "old ways" of doing things have been dire and lead to many insidious and intractable problems including the release of toxic chemicals into our environment, and a treadmill of pesticide addiction, as pests and pathogen species evolve resistance to an ever increasing number of insecticides and antibiotics. We have an on-site Biologist specializing in entomology with many years of field experience with honey bees. ​



These ideologies are incorporated into Old Sol's daily apiary operations. Vexing problems, such as Varroa mites, are controlled with an IPM approach which includes screened bottom boards, very limited use of acaricides, food grade mineral oil, and most importantly, a cutting edge bee breeding program.



Our quest for a better bee began with Minnesota Hygienic Italians and New World Carniolans. After a few disappointing years of heavy losses to Varroa mites using these lines of bees; Old Sol began participating in several Department of Agriculture sponsored breeding programs. In 1999 Old Sol was one of the first handful of bee breeders to acquire USDA Russian mite resistant stocks.


These lines of bees were a vast improvement; but still no silver bullet for the parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) and losses to Varroa continued. However several descendants managed to survive and continue to show some level of mite tolerance. By 2002 many of the most susceptible lines of bees had naturally been winnowed from our gene pool, and another line of mite resistant bees had been developed and released by The USDA Honey Bee Breeding and Genetics Laboratory. These bees developed by Doctors Harbo and Harris are known as Suppressed Mite Reproduction (SMR) or Smart Bees. SMR queens were eagerly incorporated into our honey bee improvement program, and after six years of careful selection and hybridization we have derived several lines of Varroa resistant stock. These breeder queens were selected from untreated survivor stock. Further selection criteria include gentleness, fecundity, and honey production. Daughters of these queens are offered for sale to the public
<<

Nothing about productivity.
Nothing about gentlness.
Mites mites mites.

Speaking of data? I know you have many many test results for hygenic.
Can you produce any for increased honey production?
As long as beekeepers continue to insist along these lines, many of us are worried about the REALLY important traits going by the wayside.
 
#163 ·
Point taken... that was written over twelve years ago. If anything, I am guilty of not updating the site. I have plenty of customer testimonials and photo documentation to know that these bees can compete or excel with the best of them in terms of honey collection and pollen gathering. As far as gentleness goes; many come to us for that reason specifically. I only have about 40,000 queens under my belt so far (some can do up to triple that in a singe season) with only 2 or maybe 3 complaints on temperament by beekeepers who don't like to use smoke. I think a queen breeder would be insane to not make breeder selections from hives incapable of paying the bills. Our most productive hives tend to be the ones who on average carry smaller mite loads; a statement which is probably true for most operations. A heartier more tolerant bee is NOT mutually exclusive to being a productive bee. I could send you a handful to play with next season to play with if you like. They will be grafted from boomers for the almonds that had great production for at least one season prior. I'll eat my bee hat if they don't rival your best queens.

BTW productivity and gentleness are mentioned in the last line of the quote you posted. I would probably be doing myself a favor to bring that more to the front and center one of these days.
 
#164 ·
John, I do want to buy a couple of boxes from you this year.
You have a very loyal and appreciative customer base; I hear it all the time.
I wasn't ripping on you, or any other queen producer. Just wanted to pass along my concern.
Sue Cobey mentioned "hybrid vigor" at the conference and I probed her for explanation.
I produce a few small batches of queens for myself every year and have noticed some queens with startling vigor compared to ones I buy. Is that because I am some great queen producer? I'll be the first to admit that I am not.
It could be that there is so much inbreeding in certain areas that queens mated in my spot express some of that vigor related to diversity in the area.
We went through A LOT OF QUEENS this year!!
 
#169 ·
I think of hybrid vigor as the opposite of inbreeding though I have no idea how one could truly identify it as being something different than a host of other reasons for why one hive is remarkably better than another.
 
#173 ·
Vigour is not a measurement of a specific trait or such, its just a term used to describe breeding a better performer or a better group of performers than the rest with all things being equil.

I have never herd of hybrid in bees, but I do not know much about breeding bees

When I put on my other professional hats, we do alot of breeding with cattle to set up breeding programs to achieve this hybrid vigour in our stock. That is something that we can calculate,
Also most all crops are now hybrids, hybrid vigour gives us disease resistance and higher yields,

I assume Sue Cobey Knows what she is talking about,
 
#174 ·
I am in Ontario and sell beekeeping supplies. So I am in contact with lots of beekeepers. I have heard both ends of the spectrum... from bees look pretty good at packing, to 35% loss already (large operations). I have been told from a several customers that they are expecting large losses. They are seeing small cluster sizes... and colonies collapsed.
Our own bees for the most part looked good at packing.
Also............ any beekeeper who does not think farm chemicals are not having a negative effect really needs to open their eyes. Many Ontario beekeepers experienced heavy poisonings corresponding with corn plantings in the spring. I heard many first hand accounts of full beeyards being practically wiped out. There is a reason these chemicals have been banned in many European Countries..... they kill bees.
The joke around here is you either deal with the Bears in woodland knocking your hives around(away from farmland)..... or the Bayer poisoning your bees near farmland, ( neither are funny ).
 
#176 ·
" How many is to many? "
Real simple.
Ya go into any yard & find 50 to 75% of the hives empty of bees & or small clusters that won't make it & it's to many!!
What ever is the cause of this problem it's doing a real fine job of reduction on the bee numbers in the hive!!!
 
#178 ·
>>Many Ontario beekeepers experienced heavy poisonings corresponding with corn plantings in the spring. I heard many first hand accounts of full beeyards being practically wiped out. There is a reason these chemicals have been banned in many European Countries.

ya that was not a good situation.
Corn was being planted into dry conditions with airseeding machines, what was happening is the seed treatments was blowing out of the seed rows and mixed with dust as the machine worked through the field. Because of the extreemly dry conditions experienced in many locations the dust during the field work was finer and larger blooms. The dust carried the seed treatment through the air and over beeyards adjacent to the fields. Just like getting sprayed.
 
#179 ·
soupcan, you misquoted me.

i was only trying to get an idea of the number 'first hand accounts'.

ian, how many cases are you personally aware of?

this is obviously a problem. are steps being taken to avoid it in the future?
 
#180 ·
personally Im not aware of any, and I keep bees right beside our corn fields also.
I heard of this happening in Ontario through my beekeeping extensions office,
I believe the situation is being examined

but I can say this situation has no relation to what went on in Europe, totally different kettle of fish
 
#182 ·
The poisonings in Ontario were widespread. Enough so that beekeepers were meeting directly with Bayer and OMAFRA (Ontario Min. of Agric.Food and Rural Affairs) to discuss the problem. It was a real kick for lots of beekeepers because the bees finally wintered well, only to be hit with poison.
Dust that Ian mention is thought to be the main issue... also some theory of dust landing on dark soil of field, and bees collecting their water from this soil early in the season because it has been warmed by the sun.
Also, this poisoning has many beekeepers wondering if this has been going on for years.... but this season because of the dry conditions, made it more obvious.
 
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