2012 Dieback Already?

[wildbranch2007]

Wildbranch - one of the oldtimers blames acid rain for the change in the plants. Do you think there is any possibility it has had an effect?


Crazy Roland

I'm no expert but that would be one possibility, the north east has had that problem forever but why would it be less of a problem in N.Y. ? Since in Mass. it started before GM, neonics, etc and b/4 they started telling us about global warming etc. Heck it could be some disease of golden rod, nobody would bother to look and most people would be happy.
I wish I knew where my neighbors kids were living now, they were so alergic to golden rod, wonder how bad there alergies are now, less goldenrod less alergies?
I observe these things going on, but don't really spend much time thinking about it as other than moving bees, not a thing I can do about it. I did propose gathering napp weed seeds and replanting the goldenrod fields, but got severe repremands about nasty weeds Heck it could be as Ian says, the goldenrod has been growing there for ever, mayby it finally used up some nutrients that it requires, actually makes more sense than most ideas. I watch farmers up here that don't rotate crops and keep putting on more and more fertilizer and getting less and less crops, what ever happened to leaving a field fallow for a year. the bees would probably start doing better.

[wildbranch2007]

your talking in the commercial beekeeping forum

Not being commercial but beeing observant, some comments that I would like to make is from what I have read/heard about, to me it seems that the same outfits seem to be the ones that are always crashing. A previous post says Hackenburg has allready lost 30% of his hives by Dec. from what I have read and heard, this happens every year. He keeps campaigning against neonics but has stated that he doesn't due pollination of, for instance, vine crops any more to stay away from the neonics, yet his losses continue. I'm stationary, knock on wood, haven't seen the same problems, randy olivers articles and some beeks on this formum from the corn belt don't have problems. Most beeks that I know that lose alot of hives locally, either don't treat or treat to late for mites.
When the government made taktic hard to get I suddenly saw many larger beeks asking how to use formic/apiguard asking basic question so I have to make the assumption that they were using taktic before? My guess, and only a guess is now that they have made the strips from canada legal in a few states down here, that actually the commercial problems will get worse not better as the strips contain a lower % of active ingredients. The smaller comercial people I have met that say they aren't/haven't used tactic seem to be doing fine.
One of the problems with pollen "could" be (I read this somewhere but will probably get it wrong so feel free to correct, I can't remember if it was the BT gene, but whatever monsanto used to make round up ready) the transfer from the altered corn/cotton/soybeans to the weeds. The weeds are becoming roundup ready, could it be this that is changing the polllen?
And the list could go on and on, but it's the last day of deer season, so off in the rain to hang around in a tree. The thread was getting a little slow.

[Ian]

One of the problems with pollen "could" be (I read this somewhere but will probably get it wrong so feel free to correct, I can't remember if it was the BT gene, but whatever monsanto used to make round up ready) the transfer from the altered corn/cotton/soybeans to the weeds. The weeds are becoming roundup ready, could it be this that is changing the polllen?
And the list could go on and on, but it's the last day of deer season, so off in the rain to hang around in a tree. The thread was getting a little slow.

The only weeds that are crossing with the roundup ready gene is with the wild mustards, and its not the BT gene. Could possibly be the change in crop breeding thats providing an inferior pollen, yet, you would think the anti Monsanto lobby groups would of jumped on that one if it were the case.

I enjoy reading your insight Mike !

[sqkcrk]

Wildbranch - one of the oldtimers blames acid rain for the change in the plants. Do you think there is any possibility it has had an effect?

Delber - feed a few hives sugar, pollen sub, and Sugar and pollen sub. See what happens.

Crazy Roland

What about the changes in agriculture and the dairy farming practices. The St. Lawrence Valley of NY used to be the prime honey producing region of NY, producing huge crops of water white clover honey. But that was when there were hundreds of small family farms, not huge ones like today, and the cows grazed on the pastures. So there was plenty of bee forage too. Fencerows and hedgerows existed more so providing a greater variety of pollen and nectar producing plants.

So, acid rain probably contributes to the problem, but, I bet it is more complex than we as individuals can imagine. And there is no turning back. It's not economically feasible.

[loggermike]

Just a comment on fungicides. There is research now showing problems with some of them .One problem seems to be a synergistic effect when some varroa chems are being used, causing both chemicals to be much more toxic to bees and brood.

I know that several N Cal bee breeders feel that the fungicides now being used on almond bloom are causing problems in cell viability.One is holding cell building hives out of almonds and another is trapping clean pollen in the mountains to feed to early cell builders. I have seen bees killed by the fungicide spraying that takes place in broad daylight during full bloom. but I think the worse damage comes later , after bloom, when the bees dig into there stores of almond pollen. I have seen bees pile up in front of hives , making me wonder if there was pesticide residues in the spray tanks when the fungicide was sprayed.All hard to prove, and like most of these bee losses no really obvious answer.

http://westernfarmpress.com/fungicid...ial-honey-bees

[squarepeg]

my state apiarist came by today to pick up bee samples i had collected of some usurping bees, and some from a varroa dead out that i was interested in having checked for nosema.

i asked him about 2012 losses, and he said that they probably were up some from last year.

he felt like it was most likely from the ineffective treatment of varroa, and from not preventing the spread of varroa from collapsing hives to other hives.

[LSPender]

ANd how are feelings are important, who gives a rip about feelings!!!

I want tangible evidence to see, a lot of people seem to revert to mites when in doubt.

So again today I went on a mission to find some

Today I dug thru a sick hive, scraped every capped brood and shook out larva on lid, what did I find NOTHING , not a single varroa mite in sight, NADA, ZIPO, ZERO!

I then checked bees, no mites at all!!

Bee samples are being sent to BVS tomorrow for virus testing.

This hive iwas down to 1 1/2 frames of bees, and going nowhere, now its totaly dead because I want to know what is happening.

I have had a high number of losses this year and the only place I have found mite in are a few strong hives. And yes they are still strong.

So my mission continues

[squarepeg]

sorry for your losses larry.

nosema ceranae?

let us know what beltsville says.

[Ian]

Larry, I had a yard fall also, mite counts satisfactory,
I did some testing on the bees in that yard and found high levels of nosema

My nosema testing for my overall operation was low, just this one yard spiking for some reason

I also found one queen in a failinghive and tested tested her along with my bee samples, being freshly put in that spring, and from a rumor that outfit may have had a nosema issue, but the queen came back absolutely clean

[Roland]

SQKCRK - we are in the kettle moraine, an area of terminal moraines, rather hilly, but good soil. We still have mostly small family farms, and alot of milk production. The Bull f the Woods did complain of the invention of the hay crimper in the 60's, which effected alfalfa cutting nad hence honey production.

We still have considerable fence rows and road sides that SHOULD bloom in Sweet Clover, and sometimes do, but often produce no nectar, unlike a couple decades ago.

Our area is not unlike Sheri's, but more hilly. Maybe she can provide some opinions.

Crazy Roland

[benstung]

So LSpender these hives that you are checking were once strong. I mean they made it this far?
During the summer the mites build with the hive and just after the brood rearing slows in late summer the mites take over and the bees leave, carrying the mites with them. Doing anything they can to save the colony.
If you look very close you can see dead mites in the dead larvae.

If you have a strong hive that is making honey and its July, are you really going to test for mites?? no, mite testing was done months ago.

Farmers stepped up their spraying last summer also, due to the high bug survival of the previous mild winter.

[jim lyon]

Just a comment on fungicides. There is research now showing problems with some of them .One problem seems to be a synergistic effect when some varroa chems are being used, causing both chemicals to be much more toxic to bees and brood.

I know that several N Cal bee breeders feel that the fungicides now being used on almond bloom are causing problems in cell viability.One is holding cell building hives out of almonds and another is trapping clean pollen in the mountains to feed to early cell builders. I have seen bees killed by the fungicide spraying that takes place in broad daylight during full bloom. but I think the worse damage comes later , after bloom, when the bees dig into there stores of almond pollen. I have seen bees pile up in front of hives , making me wonder if there was pesticide residues in the spray tanks when the fungicide was sprayed.All hard to prove, and like most of these bee losses no really obvious answer.

http://westernfarmpress.com/fungicid...ial-honey-bees

That's a really meaningful link Mike. You also gave a lot of good insights on this issue. I know I have seen some of these issues with our bees coming out of the Almonds and into east Texas. They always seem to recover pretty quickly for us but perhaps that is because there is plenty of fresh pollen coming in down there at that time and given the fact that we are not using any other mite chemicals at the time might well also aid in their rapid recovery. Bees being moved into a dearth and with different management techniques might well continue to decline.

[Ian]

ya, at our last beekeeping convention we listened to a speaker on this issue. I dont have the details but their studdy showed some real interesting findings, especially the synergistic effect between the chemical residues between mite chemicals within the hive and then being exposed to an outside toxin. The outside influence which would of otherwise been benign all of a sudden became very lethal when brought into the hive and exposed to our mite treatment residues. The specifically targeted fluvalinate, coumophose, and a couple of fungicides,
Ill try to dig up my notes on that talk,

they also spoke on irradiation, and showed some interesting results in regards to sterilizing bee boxes. The irradiation killed all the bacteria and helped in regards to AFB but they found hives that were irradiated trended to higher infections of Deformed Wing Virus and other bee related viruses. Why? THey dont know, but they ended the talk suggesting that there may be some kind of living function within the honeybee nest which would typically help suppress infections like viral infections. With the boxes being sterilized, that function may be removed allowing the viral infection to express itself. Perhaps there is a pathogenic interaction within the nest itself which actually helps the bees ward off disease

Just some thoughts

[soupcan]

Logger Mike, you sir are correct & yes I am very aware of the Calif. Queen Breeders feeding of pollen to cell builders that had been exposed to fungicides. This is the reason many operations are not going to almonds any longer due to a lost cycle brood or two after bees are shipped back to Texas. Many have had to quit splitting bees in mid term due to the lack of brood in the hives some weeks after almonds are done blooming. Others have kept close tabs on the bees comming from almonds and records have shown a loss on average of at least 1 box of honey. So honey is over 2 bucks in the can & the rest of the math is real simple to figure when you don't go to almonds. As I am told it's heck of a nice pay check for the job but then is it worth it when some time bees are so beat up they can not be split.
My thoughts are then I would have to ask as to how many research dollars or then again tax dollars are spent on " feelings "
What really causes nosema???

[wildbranch2007]

The only weeds that are crossing with the roundup ready gene is with the wild mustards!

I had to go look for the article I had read about weeds being resistent to roundup


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/bu...anted=all&_r=0


The first resistant species to pose a serious threat to agriculture was spotted in a Delaware soybean field in 2000. Since then, the problem has spread, with 10 resistant species in at least 22 states infesting millions of acres, predominantly soybeans, cotton and corn

Now, Roundup-resistant weeds like horseweed and giant ragweed are forcing farmers to go back to more expensive techniques that they had long ago abandoned.

Mr. Anderson, the farmer, is wrestling with a particularly tenacious species of glyphosate-resistant pest called Palmer amaranth, or pigweed, whose resistant form began seriously infesting farms in western Tennessee only last year

Randy oliver also commented on it in one of his articles I think.

as to how it could affect pollen I found the following:

http://passel.unl.edu/pages/informat...axto=9&minto=1

The backup enzyme can be compared to a detour route around road construction. Cars are still able to get to their destination, but the traffic moves slower. In the same way, the backup enzyme provides an alternate pathway for amino acid synthesis to continue. However, the pathway may not be as efficient and thus unable to produce as many amino acids. This can result in a slight decrease in yield especially if Roundup is applied at high rates. <---with resistance their might be less amino acids?

[Ian]

Those cases of round up resistance are coming from the same natural mechanism of selection pressure as every other weed forming resistance to its applied herbicide.
Specifically wild mustard has the ability to cross pollinate with canola, which in some cases has bred round up resistance. But that is arguable. We have not had any RR wild mustard cases on our farm. In fact, we have not found any cases of round up resistance in any weeds on our farm as of yet, but in time, as the selection pressures increase, and the weed spectrum change, we may well find some of those resistant weeds also.

having the ability to treat for weeds with roundup, to which were very expensive to treat for previously, has been a huge economical benefit to farmers in the short run. Even now, if the weeds have formed resistance, and the farmers have to go back, the weeds have not changed in any way other than not being killed off by roundup. So it would simply be back to old business

[jim lyon]

What we have seen much more than roundup resistance are weeds that emerge later and later in the season and may not even clear the existing canopies. An annual corn/bean rotation with some good ole Atrazine continues to do a pretty good job of weed control though.

[wildbranch2007]

the only point I was trying to make about the transfer is
In the same way, the backup enzyme provides an alternate pathway for amino acid synthesis to continue. However, the pathway may not be as efficient and thus unable to produce as many amino acids
the weeds that now have resistance to roundup have had there enzyme's altered and the new pathway is not as efficient and doesn't produce as many amino acids. The bees get amino acids from the pollen, heck I'm not even sure if any of the 10 weeds give pollen to the bees. But if they do is it a problem??
as far as Atrazine goes I hope they keep using roundup, they had runnoff from a field go into an organic farm up here, the last time they had used atrazine in the field was many many years ago, when they analyzed the dirt had very high concentrations of atrazine.

I don't see any weeds up here, or down here for the canadian beeks, that survive roundup, but I'm sure they don't use it as much as some of the larger acreage planting in your areas. But thinking about it, if the enzyme gets altered, I would assume that they could also get altered, cause the same amino acid problem but not be resistent to roundup, but after wading through that last link I ain't going there again.

[wildbranch2007]

My thoughts are then I would have to ask as to how many research dollars or then again tax dollars are spent on " feelings "

here is a post on bee-l about presentations his company is going to provide at two of the three national conventions.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...F=&S=&P=188327

We will be presenting the results of two years of wide area survey work
concerning exposure levels to clothianidin to honey bees in the corn belt
(Illinois, Indiana, and Nebraska) and in the canola seed production areas near
Lethbridge, Canada.

and from what I have read before, they don't have access to tax $ normally.

here is some research from India that indicates that some naturally liquids that may be used on hives that will help the brood. I'm not sure how long it will take our liberal government to approve the methods though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iowt6WPekA

[Michael Palmer]

I understand that Paul Cappy, NY Chief Apiculturist, just inspected an operation that lost 2800 of 3800 colonies. any other NY, or Northeast beekeepers seeing losses like this?