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  1. #161
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
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    1,162

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryVanderpool View Post
    I blame our queens...
    And where would you be getting those queens Harry?

    I would need to see more data before I would accept the blame the queens argument. I would argue that disease tolerant traits can be selected for in productive lines of bees without sacrificing any economically valuable traits.

    Nutrition and mites seem to be the main culprits in most struggling apiaries. On the nutrition front, loss of forage due to large scale Roundup ready style monoculture means a lot less variety in bee diet. Oliver's article in this months ABJ addresses this.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  2. #162
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Salem, Oregon
    Posts
    941

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    O.K. John, I click on your link and then on queens.
    Here is YOUR statement about your queens and focus:

    >>Old Sol Enterprises is a family run business that has striven to promote sustainable agriculture and a healthy environment since its inception in 1997.

    The pursuit of these endeavors has taken our family down many interesting and enlightening paths which have allowed Old Sol's founder, John Jacob, to follow his deepest convictions by expanding and utilizing his educational background (B.S. in Biology, with Minors in Chemistry and Economics).​



    We recognize that sustainable agriculture and a clean, healthy environment will require our global culture adopting a new paradigm; especially in developing countries. Elements of this new model must include an Integrate​d Pest Management (IPM) approach to pest management, support of local businesses, and many elements of organic farming.

    The consequences of the "old ways" of doing things have been dire and lead to many insidious and intractable problems including the release of toxic chemicals into our environment, and a treadmill of pesticide addiction, as pests and pathogen species evolve resistance to an ever increasing number of insecticides and antibiotics. We have an on-site Biologist specializing in entomology with many years of field experience with honey bees. ​



    These ideologies are incorporated into Old Sol's daily apiary operations. Vexing problems, such as Varroa mites, are controlled with an IPM approach which includes screened bottom boards, very limited use of acaricides, food grade mineral oil, and most importantly, a cutting edge bee breeding program.



    Our quest for a better bee began with Minnesota Hygienic Italians and New World Carniolans. After a few disappointing years of heavy losses to Varroa mites using these lines of bees; Old Sol began participating in several Department of Agriculture sponsored breeding programs. In 1999 Old Sol was one of the first handful of bee breeders to acquire USDA Russian mite resistant stocks.


    These lines of bees were a vast improvement; but still no silver bullet for the parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) and losses to Varroa continued. However several descendants managed to survive and continue to show some level of mite tolerance. By 2002 many of the most susceptible lines of bees had naturally been winnowed from our gene pool, and another line of mite resistant bees had been developed and released by The USDA Honey Bee Breeding and Genetics Laboratory. These bees developed by Doctors Harbo and Harris are known as Suppressed Mite Reproduction (SMR) or Smart Bees. SMR queens were eagerly incorporated into our honey bee improvement program, and after six years of careful selection and hybridization we have derived several lines of Varroa resistant stock. These breeder queens were selected from untreated survivor stock. Further selection criteria include gentleness, fecundity, and honey production. Daughters of these queens are offered for sale to the public
    <<

    Nothing about productivity.
    Nothing about gentlness.
    Mites mites mites.

    Speaking of data? I know you have many many test results for hygenic.
    Can you produce any for increased honey production?
    As long as beekeepers continue to insist along these lines, many of us are worried about the REALLY important traits going by the wayside.
    I have exactly ONE hive more than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond question.

  3. #163
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
    Posts
    1,162

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Point taken... that was written over twelve years ago. If anything, I am guilty of not updating the site. I have plenty of customer testimonials and photo documentation to know that these bees can compete or excel with the best of them in terms of honey collection and pollen gathering. As far as gentleness goes; many come to us for that reason specifically. I only have about 40,000 queens under my belt so far (some can do up to triple that in a singe season) with only 2 or maybe 3 complaints on temperament by beekeepers who don't like to use smoke. I think a queen breeder would be insane to not make breeder selections from hives incapable of paying the bills. Our most productive hives tend to be the ones who on average carry smaller mite loads; a statement which is probably true for most operations. A heartier more tolerant bee is NOT mutually exclusive to being a productive bee. I could send you a handful to play with next season to play with if you like. They will be grafted from boomers for the almonds that had great production for at least one season prior. I'll eat my bee hat if they don't rival your best queens.

    BTW productivity and gentleness are mentioned in the last line of the quote you posted. I would probably be doing myself a favor to bring that more to the front and center one of these days.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  4. #164
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Salem, Oregon
    Posts
    941

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    John, I do want to buy a couple of boxes from you this year.
    You have a very loyal and appreciative customer base; I hear it all the time.
    I wasn't ripping on you, or any other queen producer. Just wanted to pass along my concern.
    Sue Cobey mentioned "hybrid vigor" at the conference and I probed her for explanation.
    I produce a few small batches of queens for myself every year and have noticed some queens with startling vigor compared to ones I buy. Is that because I am some great queen producer? I'll be the first to admit that I am not.
    It could be that there is so much inbreeding in certain areas that queens mated in my spot express some of that vigor related to diversity in the area.
    We went through A LOT OF QUEENS this year!!
    I have exactly ONE hive more than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond question.

  5. #165
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,222

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    How does "vigor" espress itself? What are you seeing that you call vigor?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  6. #166
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,786

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    vigor or hybrid vigor is a term used to express great growth or high performance
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  7. #167
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,222

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    vigor or hybrid vigor is a term used to express great growth or high performance
    High performance would be expressed in the laying pattern?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  8. #168
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,786

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    I guess,
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  9. #169
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,245

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    I think of hybrid vigor as the opposite of inbreeding though I have no idea how one could truly identify it as being something different than a host of other reasons for why one hive is remarkably better than another.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  10. #170
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,222

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    So, when all things are equal, except this one does better, honeywise I assume, that's vigor? I see.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  11. #171
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,245

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    So, when all things are equal, except this one does better, honeywise I assume, that's vigor? I see.
    But of course. You better go get yourself some chittlins and a cold one and soak in some of that Carolina air Mark. You seem a bit edgy tonight.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #172
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,222

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Do I. Don't mean to be. Am somewhat tirted from early mornings, late nights and 1,000 miles driving. Sorry.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  13. #173
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Vigour is not a measurement of a specific trait or such, its just a term used to describe breeding a better performer or a better group of performers than the rest with all things being equil.

    I have never herd of hybrid in bees, but I do not know much about breeding bees

    When I put on my other professional hats, we do alot of breeding with cattle to set up breeding programs to achieve this hybrid vigour in our stock. That is something that we can calculate,
    Also most all crops are now hybrids, hybrid vigour gives us disease resistance and higher yields,

    I assume Sue Cobey Knows what she is talking about,
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  14. #174
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Port Hope, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    66

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    I am in Ontario and sell beekeeping supplies. So I am in contact with lots of beekeepers. I have heard both ends of the spectrum... from bees look pretty good at packing, to 35% loss already (large operations). I have been told from a several customers that they are expecting large losses. They are seeing small cluster sizes... and colonies collapsed.
    Our own bees for the most part looked good at packing.
    Also............ any beekeeper who does not think farm chemicals are not having a negative effect really needs to open their eyes. Many Ontario beekeepers experienced heavy poisonings corresponding with corn plantings in the spring. I heard many first hand accounts of full beeyards being practically wiped out. There is a reason these chemicals have been banned in many European Countries..... they kill bees.
    The joke around here is you either deal with the Bears in woodland knocking your hives around(away from farmland)..... or the Bayer poisoning your bees near farmland, ( neither are funny ).

  15. #175
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,277

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    >>'I heard many first hand accounts of full beeyards being practically wiped out.'

    how many is 'many'?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #176
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    omaha nebr. USA
    Posts
    494

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    " How many is to many? "
    Real simple.
    Ya go into any yard & find 50 to 75% of the hives empty of bees & or small clusters that won't make it & it's to many!!
    What ever is the cause of this problem it's doing a real fine job of reduction on the bee numbers in the hive!!!

  17. #177
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Millbury, MA, USA
    Posts
    1,792

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancing Bee Apiary View Post
    Many Ontario beekeepers experienced heavy poisonings corresponding with corn plantings in the spring. I heard many first hand accounts of full beeyards being practically wiped out.
    My understanding is that this was a talc issue with air powered planters.

  18. #178
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    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,786

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    >>Many Ontario beekeepers experienced heavy poisonings corresponding with corn plantings in the spring. I heard many first hand accounts of full beeyards being practically wiped out. There is a reason these chemicals have been banned in many European Countries.

    ya that was not a good situation.
    Corn was being planted into dry conditions with airseeding machines, what was happening is the seed treatments was blowing out of the seed rows and mixed with dust as the machine worked through the field. Because of the extreemly dry conditions experienced in many locations the dust during the field work was finer and larger blooms. The dust carried the seed treatment through the air and over beeyards adjacent to the fields. Just like getting sprayed.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #179
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,277

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    soupcan, you misquoted me.

    i was only trying to get an idea of the number 'first hand accounts'.

    ian, how many cases are you personally aware of?

    this is obviously a problem. are steps being taken to avoid it in the future?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #180
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,786

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    personally Im not aware of any, and I keep bees right beside our corn fields also.
    I heard of this happening in Ontario through my beekeeping extensions office,
    I believe the situation is being examined

    but I can say this situation has no relation to what went on in Europe, totally different kettle of fish
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

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