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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
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    2,901

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Is a lack of dead bees in a hive a classic sign of mites or related disease?

    John

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,627

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Back in the 90's when varroa first hit I had a whole load of 500+ hives that went untreated and I lost every single one. They were almost exactly the way you described your losses, lots of honey and hardly a bee. It was pretty easy to pull the honey crop though This really has nothing to do with big chemical companies though just learning how to diagnose varroa problems and to help some get answers on what may have happened to their bees.

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,627

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    John: it's not the only reason it can happen but it's probably the most common. Just take a close look at the bottom board if there are lots of dead mites then I would be certain of it

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Sheboygan, WI, USA
    Posts
    127

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Well, I appreciate the insights by all. I'm open to the possibilities. The title of this thread is "2012 Dieback Already" does this mean that I shouldn't post here and I should shut up and go to the treatment free forum? Thats the message I got a few posts back.
    To find out more about me go to
    www.broomsbylittlejohn.com

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Great Falls Montana
    Posts
    4,285

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    I would listen to Mr. Lyon if I were you and not go off in a snit. Lots of old grouches here but if you put up with them, there is a lot to learn. If you choose to be treatment free, you will be a fine customer buying bees from someone who has a stategy of some kind to control the mites. There are treatment free folks but only if you limit treatment definition to chemical treatment. Some genetics work better than others. There is a lot to learn period. Don't go away mad.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Panola County, TX USA
    Posts
    117

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    i think its obvious that both problems exist, whats not obvious is why the health of our bees seems to go in these cycles.
    i think, and i hope im right that we will not see these same problems next year.

    you see these dead hives with only a few bee's, a queen, lots of honey, no dead bee's, also not many mites.
    the reason there are not many mites is the same reason there are not many bee's.
    the bee's fly away with their sickness to try and save the colony

    And on top of that they have to deal with pesticides

  7. #87

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildforager View Post
    Well, I appreciate the insights by all. I'm open to the possibilities. The title of this thread is "2012 Dieback Already" does this mean that I shouldn't post here and I should shut up and go to the treatment free forum? Thats the message I got a few posts back.
    That wasn't the message I sent. What I responded to was your certainty that your losses weren't mite related at the same time describing conditions that were ideal for high mite losses. If you are open to the possibilities...as you say...then I say.....carry on.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,289

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramona View Post
    the idea that healthy gut microbes are a key to honeybee health then ?????

    Maybe "outside" the environment is actually "inside"?

    Ramona
    Stop, we have a winner, kinda like Nutra Bee with it's microbe builder plus sub.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Ohio
    Posts
    868

    Cool Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    I would listen to Mr. Lyon if I were you and not go off in a snit. Lots of old grouches here but if you put up with them, there is a lot to learn. If you choose to be treatment free, you will be a fine customer buying bees from someone who has a stategy of some kind to control the mites. There are treatment free folks but only if you limit treatment definition to chemical treatment. Some genetics work better than others. There is a lot to learn period. Don't go away mad.
    Vance is right! I'm treatment free and I buy new bees every year. 1989 was the start of the mite year for my Dad and I. 1300+ hive and only seven live hive in the spring. Each hive dead with 60+ lb each, and very few dead bees left in the hives. Years of supporting the chemical company for hope that something good would come from it, and didn't.
    Ready do we have the same problem or a new one.
    Why is the queens that are produced today just throw away queens???

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,627

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildforager View Post
    Well, I appreciate the insights by all. I'm open to the possibilities. The title of this thread is "2012 Dieback Already" does this mean that I shouldn't post here and I should shut up and go to the treatment free forum? Thats the message I got a few posts back.
    My intention wasn't to be rude at all but it is fair to note that this is the commercial forum. You can read the definition and then post if you feel that what you are posting meets that definition and adds to the discussion. If your perspective is that what is happening to some of these folks bees is the fault of big chemical companies you may well have some commercials agree with you but dont be offended when you are challenged to back up your claims and be able to make a compelling case for why varroa is not the problem. Hope I didn't sound like an old grouch.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  11. #91

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Hope I didn't sound like an old grouch.
    I think the old grouch comment was directed at ......moi....but then, I've been called much worse
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    dennison MN
    Posts
    112

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    so if i treat for mites once a month all year long, and then feed the bees nutra bee in the fall your saying i will have live hives come november. i really am curious how often some of you are treating. i treated once in the spring and 3 times in the fall. not enough?? too much?? where am i different from those of you that still have good bees this year.....is natural pollen building their gut microbes up??

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,627

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Honey Householder View Post
    Why is the queens that are produced today just throw away queens???
    I would not call commercially produced throw away queens. These commercial queen breeders would be able to talk me under the table about making queens,.... Yet they still send poor performing queens,... they also send some real excellent producers


    I think its not that the queens are bad, I think its that the queens are getting sick. Getting sick either while being raised or getting sick in the beekeepers hive.
    I think Nosema is at the heart of our queen problems
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  14. #94
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    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    6,627

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by mnbeekeeper View Post
    .....is natural pollen building their gut microbes up??
    I want you to understand, Im not defending chemical use amoungst farmers or beekeeper alike. What Im saying is we have not been able to bring about enough hard direct proof to implicate Chemical X killing Bee hive B systemically. That direct link has not been made on a systemic basis. Until then we have to figure out a way to manage our hives in this chemical agriculture world.
    I dont like it, just as you dont like it, but its the reality of our situation. We need our association to keep looking and spending the time creating the links and proof. Nobody else is going to do it for us but ourselves. Sound familiar?

    We must not come across the wrong way and making farmers out to be our enemies. I hear alot of that. Its the farmers we make our living off of. Farmers do not have a choice either, just as we do not have a choice whether to treat our diseases or not. Its just the way our economy has built itself. And Im not going to debate that here at all....


    If giving the bees a diet supplement to help replace whatever modern day agriculture "MAY" be taking away from the bees food is probably one of the simplest short term solutions we have at our disposal right now. And if anything it will buy us time to be able to figure what is going on.
    Because perhaps there isnt even a problem there at all.... It may be something completely different... Like Virus...

    Just my opinion
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    omaha nebr. USA
    Posts
    494

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    I got the results yesterday from the lab tests for bees, wax, & pollen & I have to say I know less today than I did when the samples were sent in.
    Nothing out of the ordinary was found and the remarks were made as to how clean all the samples are for no chemicals & what not.
    Almost at this point in time wish there had been a smoking gun so to speak & something to place the blame on.
    As I said in the past posts this is not effecting the entire outfit by any means. A few miles down the road the bees are looking fine & no loss.
    Then there are 2 yards of comb honey bees that made a record crop this year are going into winter in great shape with no losses.
    Frustrating is one word for this but as I tell my son " If this deal was easy everyone would have bees & honey would maybe worth a buck at best " then I also would be kidding only myself if I thought this deal would get any easier after 35 years.
    My last job of 20 plus years we always preached the 3-C's.
    Cause, Correction, & Cure.
    Here I have no Cause, no way of implementing a Correction, that could result in a possible Cure!
    Last edited by soupcan; 11-14-2012 at 10:30 AM.

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,289

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by mnbeekeeper View Post
    so if i treat for mites once a month all year long, and then feed the bees nutra bee in the fall your saying i will have live hives come november
    MnBeekeeper, with a question like that your best bet would be to ask questions on "beekeeping 101" then migrate to "Commercial beekeeping" once you understand the fundelmentals of beekeeping then migrate back to the commercial thread. Good luck, Keith
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Ohio
    Posts
    868

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    I would not call commercially produced throw away queens. These commercial queen breeders would be able to talk me under the table about making queens,.... Yet they still send poor performing queens,... they also send some real excellent producers


    I think its not that the queens are bad, I think its that the queens are getting sick. Getting sick either while being raised or getting sick in the beekeepers hive.
    I think Nosema is at the heart of our queen problems
    Ian,
    I buy great queens for the best honey production, but they are only good for one season. Wasn't always like that. When I was a kid, I never hear of having to requeen all the time. Now requeen is just part of the job. I've taken it to the next step. I rehive the bees every year. Fresh bees and fresh queens for best production.

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,627

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by mnbeekeeper View Post
    so if i treat for mites once a month all year long, and then feed the bees nutra bee in the fall your saying i will have live hives come november. i really am curious how often some of you are treating. i treated once in the spring and 3 times in the fall. not enough?? too much?? where am i different from those of you that still have good bees this year.....is natural pollen building their gut microbes up??
    I have been pretty public about what we do, take it for what it's worth, it might work but there are no guarantees as their are always variables in any different scenario. We replace ALL of our queens (yes I know much easier said than done) in the early spring and forego any spring treatments at all. In late summer after pulling our honey we treat with thymol. That's the real money treatment that will give you your healthy winter clusters but it can also be problematic if temps are too high or too low. We follow that up with an oxalic dribble in October when they are broodless and that's it. If you don't have your mite levels low enough in spring and are seeing a lot of mites in your nucs then you may well have to treat immediately after your queen is mated. Oxalic works well but may be risky at that stage. It has recently been suggested that hop guard might be another good product to use at that time. None of this is terribly complicated but timing and good treating conditions are the real key more so than how many times you treat.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  19. #99
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,627

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Thats the way it use to be up here. It definitely has its advantages.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Honey Householder View Post
    Ian,
    I've taken it to the next step. I rehive the bees every year. Fresh bees and fresh queens for best production.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Dorothy, New Jersey USA
    Posts
    63

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Okay, my turn to get yelled at. Please do not bully another member until you bully me.

    I see some of my bees doing good and others doing poorly, or I don't see them anymore.

    Have been hearing of other beeks with terrible looking bees in the commercial sector, not so much with sideliners or hobbiests.

    My thoughts are as follows:

    1. Mites: Hives that skipped a cranberry pollination and were split in late June before heading up to NY look good. All my hives were treated with Apigaurd in early July. Mite levels are back up in most of the hives, but higher in the hives that weren't split.

    2. Weather: Early spring= more mites. dry late spring and fall led to poor looking bees by late June through July (Bees turned around when they hit the ground in NY.) Little nectar all summer until knotweed in late August. cool weather in late september and october ended fresh pollen sources which made them eat stored pollen.

    3. Fungicides, someone back there mentioned them. Fungicides, I believe, make pollen almost worthless. My theory is the bees got some sprayed pollen in blueberries, but stored it because they had good oak pollen at the same time that they preferred. Bees in cranberries are expected to get loaded with fungicides. When the pollen stopped coming in in the fall, the bees had to use stored pollen wich contained fungicides, which further stressed the bees. Include with that the extremly high mite load at this time of the year mentioned by others. Add the affect of viral loads which the bees can't fight because they have a cold and have been living off a box of ramen noodles, so to speak. I know why my bees went backwards, looked like a good 3 boxes of bees first week of October, and by the third week they were averaging 6 frames of bees. Those bees that didn't go to cranberries got less fungicide, and their stored pollen was split in half.

    Ok, you guys get it, thats what you've been saying. but I have almost empty and empty hives that aren't littered with mites on the bottom board. Next year will be better, eh?

    This is when Keith says you need Nutra-Bee. (No east coast supplier. Yet. )
    Regards,
    Tim Stewart
    Stewart's Apiaries

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