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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    24,495

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Statements that were made which I wanted to substantiate about widespread substantial losses.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,042

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    understood, thanks mark.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Lakeland FL
    Posts
    848

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    One thing we all need to do is not only treat for mites but TEST! what were the levels of mite what are the levels. With most of these new products out there the weather and brood plays such a big part.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Camarillo, CA, USA
    Posts
    322

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    MITES are NOT the problem, get over it!!!!!!! When will some of you realize that pesticides are causing these problemes. The challenge comes in the forums of chemicals that are being used, they effect the bee hive, a biological unit , at the core of its operation in a way we do not understand yet! And it is different than a spray kill of yester year, That is a products sprayed and you have thousands of dead bees within a 24 to 48 hours period on the ground in front of the hive.
    I personally have beene drastictly effected by growth regulators that were sprayed to kill grasshoppers, hives full of honey, capped brood and no bees, & no mites in the dead brood!!!!!. Thats from the Idaho area. From North dakota we have extracted many drums of honey from the dead outs, solid frames of capped honey in singles, hives dead by 1 st week in Oct, yet they are plugged full of sunflower honey, which bloomed in late august, so there had to be bees to make the honey, again no mites in dead brood!!!!!
    In years past we have found mites in the dead hives , not this year.
    Prior to repsonding , please take a deep breath and as my friend the research scientist that test crop chemicals & pestides for the major companies told me last week, Something bigger is happening here and we have not figured out how to see it.

    My main suspect is the sygergistic reactions of the many diferent chemicals in the hives, as we all know the hive is a big sponge and the bees collect everything in the area. What the triggeres are, do not know, but I have seen the results this year.

    The other wired thing is that I am see tones of wax moths , that we have not seen for years. They are growing in all dead outs from CA, ID & ND. This is conffusing to me.
    Larry Pender,Jubilee HoneyBee Company,Camarillo, CA

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    24,495

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Easy LSPender. We can hear you. That's what I have been hearing too, but confirmation has been sketchy I believe.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,044

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Well no doubt grasshopper spraying is a problem.....where it occurs. As are mites when they aren't controlled. Grasshopper spraying primarily occurs in the grasslands of the west where they breed in ground that is undisturbed by farming. I saw a little of it myself this summer, fortunately it was early enough in the season that the bees had time to recover. however some of these reports are in areas that are heavily farmed and in those cases there is suspicion of fungicides and other farm chemicals. I have no idea what the cause or causes might be in each case only that "all the usual suspects" need to be considered and certainly varroa has a pretty long rap sheet.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Panola County, TX USA
    Posts
    125

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    for example-
    one yard all with hives started late with one single frame of brood and new queen. ALL equipment totally brand new.
    By August these are all thriving doubles with new comb. Mite free and treated.

    then the brood that is found while we are extracting is put on these hives daily, one box at a time as needed. meaning a few boxes a day.
    using these hives as an incubator for the brood to hatch out of the comb and give the hives some extra population at the same time.
    after some time passes and the brood hatches and i went to take the boxes off and what do i find.

    now i realize what i was doing was taking a spoon full of mites and putting them in the hive.
    4 good hives left in the whole yard???
    moral of the story is that something came with that brood and destroyed the hives.
    and that something was the varroa mite.

    these characteristics held true through out our operation this fall.

    Just as Lpender said. boxes and boxes plugged with honey, must have been lots of bees at some point.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by benstung View Post
    Just as Lpender said. boxes and boxes plugged with honey, must have been lots of bees at some point.
    Boxes plugged full of honey, Thats when mites do their best work.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,044

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    My first encounters with varroa years ago was pretty much what you describe, lots of bees mid summer but by fall you end up with a whole bunch of honey and a few hundred bees. Of course that's a pretty easy diagnosis as the bottom boards will be red with dead mites. On the other hand if there are lots of dead bees in the entrance it could well be a mite vectored virus though if mite counts are low and there are "crawlers" I would be looking at other potential causes. In any case one should always first eliminate varroa as the cause before looking elsewhere. It continues to be the worst and, with the exception of afb, the most easily diagnosed. Lets just remember, though, bees are in lots and lots of different conditions under many varied management scenarios. There is almost certainly no "one size fits all" solution.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,485

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Yes I do agree pesticides is a problem. Pesticides used outside the hive, pesticides used inside the hive. Their residues surely are having the effect on the health of our hives. One part of the puzzle.
    The other part of the puzzle is colony diseases, varroa, nosema, all the 7 different viral infections they can get, afb
    I believe, as many others do, that it is the drag down in colony health from external AND internal exposure which allow these diseases to thrive.

    But all this stuff is getting boring right,.? It has been said again and again, no one person to blame, yet the problem still exists and our bees are not performing as they once did.

    So lets blame the farmers!!! lets blame the chemical companies!!! lets string them up and get some justice here!!! Our bees are dying! Science isnt giving us a clear answer! Lets make our own answer!!!
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,485

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    The thing about pesticide exposure is its effect on the organism does not discriminate. But I believe the reason why we are seeing so much variation between exposures is the interaction between the diseases present in the hive.

    Viral infections especially, but we know very little about these diseases to be able to comment on them,...

    But we know alot about Nosema and its effect on bees. But lets look past the worker bees and look at the queen herself. when she gets sick she takes the colony down.
    I notice as does most other beekeepers that queens younger than 1 years of age performs better than queens older than 2 years of age. It never use to be that way. 2 year old queens use to be in their prime. I seriously believe nosema has alot to do with this.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Camarillo, CA, USA
    Posts
    322

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Why not ask the question from a new perspective about nosema, why do we assume it is starting from inside our operations, what about asking the questions from the persective of the outside environment? Is something outside the hive enhancing the nosema levels?
    Larry Pender,Jubilee HoneyBee Company,Camarillo, CA

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Leominster, MA USA
    Posts
    165

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by LSPender View Post
    Why not ask the question from a new perspective about nosema, why do we assume it is starting from inside our operations, what about asking the questions from the persective of the outside environment? Is something outside the hive enhancing the nosema levels?
    A couple of years ago we had Dave Tarpy speak to our local bee club on queen bee health. He showed a chart which I believe is in the Sammataro/Yoder book on honeybee health...chart showed nosema levels in queens over decades (back to 1940's oe earlier? sorry...not with my books right now). Queens over time showed varying levels of nosema - 10%, 20%,etc., up and down over the years. Queens in 2010 (think it was then - most recent looked at for that particular study) showed nosema levels at 0%.

    We asked why 0%? What is different all of a sudden? Dave said that the queen producers are "feeding the snot out of them with fumagillin".

    If there is truth to the report that fumagillin use increases nosema spore production and the idea that healthy gut microbes are a key to honeybee health then ?????

    Maybe "outside" the environment is actually "inside"?

    Ramona

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Coatesville, Pa, USA
    Posts
    797

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Seems to me that this is all the more reason to use foundationless / comb guide, recycle combs out at some 2 or 3 year intervals, and rear your own queens from your "proven" hives.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,485

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    I have had problems with finding dead hives through out the year, no apparent reason why the colony fails. Finding broodless hives in spring, finding broodless hive under 5 boxes, finding broodless hives in fall. Die outs. no rime nor rhythm.
    Why? the queen just shuts down. The hive doesnt replace her, why?

    more and more Im suspecting Nosema for this.

    last spring we received one of our batchs of queens from Hawaii that were absolute failures. And if the hive accepted them, they did not lay. Guess what, nosema was the culprit.

    you suggest to look outside the hive, absolutely. Everything outside the hive influences what happens inside the hive. But what Im hearing is blame being singled out. If there were proof for that blame at least we would have something to act on.




    you know that she is a witch, she acts like a witch, she looks like a witch, but you cant prove that she is a witch,
    so you kill the witch to stop her from doing witch things.
    the only problem is that there is no such things as witches
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Sheboygan, WI, USA
    Posts
    129

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    LSPender, I totally agree with this. This summer a saw a few bees, here and there, with deformed wings in a hive or 2 of mine. My understanding is that there is a varroa presence then but the effects were minimal for me. I've requeened over half of my hives with VSH queens. I don't treat but did put in some beetle blaster traps after seeing more beetles than usual in my hives. In the last 6 weeks I've gone from 20 hives down to 12 (lost 2 or 3 of my strongest and oldest hives). The lost hives have either no bees at all inside or very few dead in a cluster. Some totally loaded with frames of capped honey and some with no food, no brood, but feed in the hive top feeder above. I keep my bees at 2 locations, both are organic veggie farms. Who knows what the neighboring farms do. Its really saddening.

    Quote Originally Posted by LSPender View Post
    MITES are NOT the problem, get over it!!!!!!! When will some of you realize that pesticides are causing these problems.
    To find out more about me go to
    www.broomsbylittlejohn.com

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    FRASER VALLEY, BRITISH COLUMBIA
    Posts
    1,280

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Checked a few hives yesterday. They looked good. Some were clustered pretty tight. Others were open and the temperatures of the inner covers suggested there was still some brood rearing going on. The season was generally poor but I spent a small fortune on pollen ptties and plenty of syrup.Treated for nosema but I have not done a spore count recently. Low varroa levels, but they were treated in the fall with thymol. We also changed all our queens this season with our home grown queens.

    So far I would have to say I am pleased with my bees.

    Jean-Marc

  18. #78

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildforager View Post
    This summer a saw a few bees, here and there, with deformed wings in a hive or 2 of mine. My understanding is that there is a varroa presence then but the effects were minimal for me. I've requeened over half of my hives with VSH queens. I don't treat
    Let me see if I understand. You requeened half of your hives w/VSH queens and DWV was not epidemic, …therefore it could not have been varroa related…in spite of the fact that you don’t treat.
    Quote Originally Posted by wildforager View Post
    (lost 2 or 3 of my strongest and oldest hives)
    I'm afraid that this is classic varroa collapse.

    If my interpretation is correct, then I believe you’ve found yourself in the wrong place. There is a support group for this sort of denial on Beesource. It is called the Treatment Free Forum.
    Good luck.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Sheboygan, WI, USA
    Posts
    129

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Dan,
    Its even sadder that you only see one possible reason for losses of bees. Are you employed by monsanto or bayer? Get real man, mites are not the only reason my hives died. OK, I'll give you a hive or 2 at the most but 8 hives in 6 weeks? And most had not a single dead bee inside? Wake up. You're the one in denial.
    To find out more about me go to
    www.broomsbylittlejohn.com

  20. #80

    Default Re: 2012 Dieback Already?

    Early fall when brood production slows/ends is the time when varroa damage reaches its peak. The bigger and older the colony, the harder and faster they collapse. I am not going to argue this with you. I will only say that without knowing the level of varroa infestation in your hives, to insist that their collapse wasn’t varroa related is denial.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

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