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  1. #481
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Lets not get carried away. Reading the posts the context and meaning is clear. It was only easy to make that mistake by skimming instead of reading.
    You assume too much. I did not skim, and I did read your posts in context.

    Your meaning was certainly unclear.

    I merely thank the Resident Archiver for his good work, and you have a problem?

    Let's not get carried away....
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #482
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    You assume too much. I did not skim, and I did read your posts in context.

    Your meaning was certainly unclear
    I agree that given the widespread use of 'readings' in the context of mite counts makes confusion easy, though I don't understand how you can read my posts carefully and still think that. Perhaps I assumed too much knowledge on your part. When you've spent as long as I have working with this stuff its easy to assume others are more familiar with it than is the case. If so I apologise.

    Can I take it we understand each other now? Is there anything you'd like to say or ask about the issue? Do you accept that my position is sound? Splits can be made (if done carefully) such that false readings about mite resistance (resistance against mites by bees, just to be clear - I know you guys talk a lot about mites being resistant to the treatments) ... are not a problem. Yes?

    It's very often important for beginners to make rapid increase of their limited stock, to multiply up those few they believe to be carrying the genes that confer the required behaviours. Clearly, its important too that that is done in a way that doesn't interfere with the necessary evaluations of colonies for those same behaviours.

    That is what all this has been about. For those who want go non-treatment this stuff may well be crucial. Lets remember what is important.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 08-12-2013 at 12:26 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  3. #483
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Can I take it we understand each other now? Is there anything you'd like to say or ask about the issue?
    Well not really because you are arguing over trivia again. He said - she said, type stuff.

    However I would suggest sticking with industry standard terminology if you want to be correctly understood. I'll bet most people still won't know just what you meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    When you've spent as long as I have working with this stuff its easy to assume others are more familiar with it than is the case.
    Stuff? What stuff?

    You mean bees or mites? You think you've worked with them more than me?

    Let's get real here.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  4. #484
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    ... I would suggest sticking with industry standard terminology if you want to be correctly understood. I'll bet most people still won't know just what you meant.
    Perhaps you could help me shape it to a form that would be understood by people using 'standard terminolgy'? How would you express the key notions?

    Come on Oldtimer, engage with the conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    You mean bees or mites? You think you've worked with them more than me?
    (Sigh) When you can't win the argument, attack the speaker's authority. Standard stuff.

    I think I have a better understanding of the most important issues, as a result of 30-odd year's study - of the specific issue of how treatments prevent adaptation. See my website. Critique it, here.

    Keeping lots of bees with treatments, stopping treatments and losing all your bees doesn't really confer much authority here where we are examining the essentials of treatment free beekeeping.

    Enough sniping, enough who has the biggest exhaust pipe. Lets talk non-treatment beekeeping. I'm starting to think that's the last thing you want to talk about. Again, if you can, engage with the issues.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  5. #485
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    Nelson, South Island, New Zealand
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    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    I don't know how you can come to that conclusion when I'm losing a single hive each winter and keep having more bees than I know what to do with.
    I DO NOT SPLIT HIVES. I have not done for three years now. I grow new hives from mating nucs that are made from weak or middling hives that have been disassembled. There are no splits going on in the traditional sense. I can't split a hive to control mites when the original hive doesn't exist anymore. There are no walk-away splits done here.
    OK so call me thick but you say you only lose one hive each winter and you don't split and then you tell me that you make up new hives utilising all the brood bees and stores from your not so good hives to me thats splitting.

    Why are the hives no good? are they affected by varroa? How many hives do you run in total? if you have been treatment free successfully for so long I would have thought you wouldn't have many hives that couldn't cope with varroa?

    How many hives from your total would you dissassemble each year?

    I can't help wondering if your underperforming hives are the hives that weren't split the year before because they were OK that year but now are succumbing to mites so they get split then that split is grown to a full hive which copes well with varroa initially then in year 2 or 3 it becomes an underperforming hive.

    And so on and so forth.

  6. #486
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    There is more to learn about bees than just not treating them, and breeding from survivors. Which is the only thing you seem to know.

    The other stuff is important for treatment free beekeepers also. Take Solomon for example. Last year he found out how to graft and raise queens. It has revolutionised his beekeeping. Prior to that he thought the only thing that mattered was not treating, and for his first 8 years his hives languished and he was always struggling.

    Why am I here? Until recently I was running treatment free hives, so I hung out here. I also still hope to be treatment free some day, or at least, less treatment. So I'm here.

    Also, cos I'm allowed. If that's a problem for you, too bad.

    We don't have to argue. They are mostly started by you, so don't complain.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  7. #487
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    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I'm continually surprised to find more and more hives in my area than I ever expected.
    Your comments were interesting and I know you do not believe genetics are that important. So what kind of hives are you surrounded by? Treatment free hobbyists? Or commercials?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #488
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,531

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Neither! I don't know the details of those hives around me, but I would guess 90% are treated hobby hives. I know firsthand of some hives and I know they are not TF. The only TF hive I know of is the one sitting in my neighbor's yard. Also, the hives I know about come from western packages as well as new queens yearly.
    Regards, Barry

  9. #489
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    Denver, Colorado
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    5,113

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    OK so call me thick but you say you only lose one hive each winter and you don't split and then you tell me that you make up new hives utilising all the brood bees and stores from your not so good hives to me thats splitting.
    In beekeeping terms, in relation to MDA Splitter and the classic "walk-away split" methods, it is not a split. There is no original hive from which the split is made, it is gone. What you keep claiming is that I split for varroa control. But this is not happening. What you fail to explain is the 50-60% of hives which do not have a brood break, are not split, and indeed are hardly touched which survive year after year, producing honey.



    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    Why are the hives no good? are they affected by varroa? How many hives do you run in total? if you have been treatment free successfully for so long I would have thought you wouldn't have many hives that couldn't cope with varroa?
    Every hive has to cope with varroa, that's how it works. I certainly don't help. Usually, they simply fail to build up acceptably in the spring. For what reason? It doesn't matter, they don't do it, so they're gone.



    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    How many hives from your total would you dissassemble each year?
    I would estimate less than 20%.



    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    I can't help wondering if your underperforming hives are the hives that weren't split the year before because they were OK that year but now are succumbing to mites so they get split then that split is grown to a full hive which copes well with varroa initially then in year 2 or 3 it becomes an underperforming hive.
    No. In fact, I find that hives that are good producers are good producers year after year. If they are gentle enough I will then graft from them. Actually, I'm finding Tim Ives' observations about queen age to be spot on in relation to the overall arc of the life of a hive.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  10. #490
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    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    What you fail to explain is the 50-60% of hives which do not have a brood break, are not split, and indeed are hardly touched which survive year after year, producing honey.
    Perhaps I can explain it. Based on your figures you claim, currently, 32 hives. You claim a record honey production year, something over 300 lbs from 6 hives.

    According to my maths, that means 20 percent of you hives made you a honey surplus. A commercial beekeeper could certainly not survive on that kind of production, and it begs the question, what was actually wrong with the 80%
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #491
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    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    I think I have a better understanding of the most important issues, as a result of 30-odd year's study - of the specific issue of how treatments prevent adaptation. See my website. Critique it, here.
    Sounds eminently reasonable to direct us to your website, right?

    But it seems that when the shoe is on the other foot, you don't subscribe to that theory! Here is what you posted earlier, insisting Oldtimer provide you an on-the-spot summary of his actions/philosophies:
    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Great, keep at it. If you can find a moment summarise your understanding of the principles of breeding, and how they mimic natural selection for the fittest strains, and how to apply that understanding to beekeeping, I'll critique it for you.

    (I'm not suggesting that in order to try to trip you up, I'm suggesting it because making the effort to produce a short essay along those lines will help you gain clarity about the things that matter, and will help me and others spot any shortcomings in your understanding. And doing that will help us gain more clarity about our own understanding)




    (and so there is no more misunderstandings about quotes being out of context, a reminder that you can always click the blue arrow in the quote box to go to the original post)
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  12. #492
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    At the start of this beekeeping year, I had 22 hives, lost one this spring, lost one this summer before honey as I mentioned a number of times already. That's 20 hives. From 20 I kept 6 for honey, and from the remaining 14, made something like 35 nucs, some hives being broken up completely, some having brood borrowed, some requeened, some just allowed to grow and build comb as I am needing medium drawn frames and plastic frames are not drawn as quickly. After selling nucs, the difference between 20 and 32 is nucs left over, cancelled orders, new hives. Between the ones allowed to grow and the ones kept for honey, 50-60% aren't messed with, requeened, brood breaks, or anything at all.

    Sorry I can't give exact numbers in all cases, I don't keep them.

    Now I wait until Fall when I decide which hives to eliminate as I only want 25 going into winter. I have too many. I sold a queen yesterday, so that helps, but I still need to sell more or eliminate weaklings. My goal is to not feed at all this winter. I must resist the urge to intervene and feed to keep my losses down.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #493
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    and so there is no more misunderstandings about quotes being out of context, a reminder that you can always click the blue arrow in the quote box to go to the original post)
    Oh there's a handy thing I never knew that.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #494
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Sounds eminently reasonable to direct us to your website, right?
    [And so on]
    It would be fine if Oldtimer could direct me to a website outlining his experience. I'm just not trawling through endless posts to glean that info.

    [Shoe on the other foot etc...] I don't get it Graham. I supply a website outlining my understanding of the relation between treating and needing to treat, and also provide on request a fullish summary of my methods and progress to date.

    Oldtimer supplies me nothing. Zilch.

    Your 'other shoe' doesn't compute.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  15. #495
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Honestly Mike, when I'm spoken down to like a piece of trash, and everything I say is treated the same way, what would you expect.

    As previously said, if you were genuinely interested I'd be only too happy. Despite all the crap that's gone down, if people get off my case I forget fairly quickly, that's my personality. Some people here I've had major disagreements with in the past are now friends.

    But what's been said in your posts, some deleted along with mine, show you are in no way ready for this yet. Take post #484 for example, your references to your "authority", "better understanding", etc, are just part of the general arrogance and superiority that you would have to deal with before I'd feel free to attempt a sensible exchange of knowledge.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 08-12-2013 at 03:34 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #496

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Ah well, Mike Bispham...I very well remember you from the biobees-forum. (Especially the fruit- and endless discussions.) Hope your 'treatment free beekeeping' developed well since...

  17. #497
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    As previously said, if you were genuinely interested I'd be only too happy.
    I am genuinely interested. But I will find it hard not to express a view as to what went wrong if I think I can spot something. That's nothing personal; just dialogue in the interest of learning.

    I'd also be interested to know what you think went wrong. Again, I might want to pick holes in your view. I might not too. Either way, it won't be anything personal, just talk about a situation that might help any of us in our own situations.

    I'm sorry you think I speak down to you. I feel a bit the same. We've both got prickly with each other. I'll try harder.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  18. #498
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    I'll try harder.
    Well if you can pull it off, as I say, I'm more than happy.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  19. #499

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Mike, how your hives doing? All theories are nice and sound. But I am interested in your hives and your hands on experience. We discussed your thoughts about four years ago. Did you do any progress since? Pictures? Reports? Anything? Thanks in advance.

  20. #500
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Ah well, Mike Bispham...I very well remember you from the biobees-forum. (Especially the fruit- and endless discussions.) Hope your 'treatment free beekeeping' developed well since...
    Bernhard, my dear!

    Biobees; that'll be the place where sugar sprinkling is just dandy because sugar is a natural substance, yes? Was all a bit fruit- in the end, but it had to be tried. Here people agree with me about sugar! Sanity!

    Yes, my t/f beekeeping appears to be going well thanks. 40 hives and falling - its that time of year. Third year of expansion, no treatments, no manipulations, no funny business. How about yourself? Are you a sprinkler, or t/f?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

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