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Winter losses vs. Summer gains

180K views 644 replies 60 participants last post by  Oldtimer 
#1 ·
From time to time, there are complaints that there is too much bickering and arguing and people aren't getting to talk about what they want. Well, I can't do anything about that, people are people.

But what I can do and what I like to do is answer questions. So I want to give everybody the free and explicit opportunity to ask serious questions. If you want to be treatment-free, or if you are weighing your options, ask away. I want to help you. I'm not going to be answering challenges or defending my methods or viewpoint. I want to help you if you want to be helped. I want to tell you what you want to know, not what you want to hear. I had tons of questions and many of them will be the same ones you are asking now. You can even go back to 2003 and see them for yourself in the archives.

So ask away. You have my ear.
 
#407 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

When I was a kid a book I read described how to diagnose it, they had a little device with two pins sticking up, and the bee was impaled on these through the back of the lower thorax, ie, the bee was in an upside down position.

The two front legs with that section of the thorax were cut off, and according to the photos provided, this exposed some of the main tracheal tubes. The infested ones showed clearly very dark, going by the pics a good magnifying glass would be all that would be needed, or someone with very keen eyesight may be able to see it unaided. Non infested bees the tracheae were almost invisible being the same pearly white colour as the rest of the surrounding material.

Being a schoolboy bee geek at the time I built one of the devises, but the mites did not make it to my country so I never got to try it. I did impale and dissect a few bees on it though LOL

Mike Bispham don't ask me for proof or references I don't have any.
 
#412 ·
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Im kind of fuzzy on that. I remember our losses running a bit high for a few years after our first positive diagnosis, dosent seem like they were at unmanageable levels though. APHIS got pretty panicky when it was first diagnosed and started depopulating hives that tested positive thinking that they could control it. A neighboring beekeeper had just moved his bees back to South Dakota from an area where they had been found so they came out here started testing then decided they all had to be killed. It was all pretty crazy. Within a couple years pretty much everyone had tested positive.
 
#413 ·
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Yes it got to the US in 84, from South America (I think). But it had been around in England for a lot longer and was one of the things the Buckfast bee was designed to defeat. American bees threw it off pretty quick but the English bees struggled with it for many years, and possibly still have it in small doses.
 
#414 ·
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American bees threw it off pretty quick but the English bees struggled with it for many years, and possibly still have it in small doses.
From Brother Adam's descriptions, it wiped out all of the the native English bees and the only bees left were of Italian descent. The Abbey then spent the next couple of years helping to make up the enormous losses across the country. This is what likely would have happened with varroa if there weren't treatments. Basically a country wide "Bond Test". Similar tobehat happened with Russian honey bees in the Primorsky region. Perhaps the reason Tracheal mites weren't quite as a big of a deal here is that most of the North American stock has some Italian heritage?
 
#415 ·
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My impression is that by the time tracheal mites arrived in America, there was already some resistance in American stocks. I recall reading somewhere that in Florida, researchers had a hard time finding infected colonies to use in studies of the problem.

It's interesting t speculate on what might have happened to varroa mites had aggressive treatments not been available, as was the case with tracheal mites in the UK in the 20s.
 
#419 ·
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My impression is that by the time tracheal mites arrived in America, there was already some resistance in American stocks. I recall reading somewhere that in Florida, researchers had a hard time finding infected colonies to use in studies of the problem.

It's interesting t speculate on what might have happened to varroa mites had aggressive treatments not been available, as was the case with tracheal mites in the UK in the 20s.
I suppose at some point they had trouble finding tm infected hives but the first few years there was lots of testing and lots of positives. I think speculation that the devastation in the UK somehow lessened the impact in the US is probably pretty relevant though it may have primarily been related more to a resistance by Italian bees in general. So what actually is the current state of the original English bee?
 
#416 ·
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you often hear that the pollination by honeybees is responsible for a big portion of the world's food supply. is that true? are there any reliable estimates of what would happen to the food supply if managed bees suffered a 90% loss in a given year?
 
#418 · (Edited)
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you often hear that the pollination by honeybees is responsible for a big portion of the world's food supply. is that true? are there any reliable estimates of what would happen to the food supply if managed bees suffered a 90% loss in a given year?
Websearch "The Value of Honeybees as Pollinators of US Crops in 2000" by Roger Morse and Nic Calderone. I believe it was published in Bee Culture Magazine and American Bee Journal.
 
#417 ·
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Years ago Steve Taber speculated in an ABJ Article that if all US Beekeepers were willing to go w/out treating Varroa that in 30 years we would have Varroa tolerant bees. He also said that we also wouldn't have any Commercial Beekeepers.
 
#421 ·
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Brother Adam was a tireless worker. It's fascinating to read about his trips to collect bees from all sorts of obscure places around the world. I really enjoyed reading Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey. Highly recommended, for a glimpse into what true dedication looks like.
 
#432 ·
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The secondary part of the discussion about what foods require pollination are crops which require pollination only to raise seed. Because of this many of the calculations about the value of pollination include all dairy products because alfalfa is a primary feed yet only requires bees to raise the seed and not the actual forage. Onions and many other seeds as well I am sure are included.
 
#433 ·
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Solomon,

On your website, you mention not feeding HFCS, and only feeding sugar syrup when you have to. I have 8 hives now, all from cutouts, and all of them seem light. 3 of them barely have any stores of nectar or honey, but all of them seem to have lots of pollen.

Is the goldenrod flow enough to carry everyone through, or should I feed 2:1 until they stop taking it? What are the chances of a hive in a single medium making it?

Thanks,
J
 
#434 ·
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Is the goldenrod flow enough to carry everyone through, or should I feed 2:1 until they stop taking it?
I cannot speak to your conditions, but it isn't enough here. I feed granulated sugar nowadays, no syrup for a while. With syrup, you're making them do a lot of work and introducing the problems that syrup has. With granulated sugar, they don't need to process it and they won't use it if they don't need it.


What are the chances of a hive in a single medium making it?
With granulated sugar in a super on top, I'd give them some chance. Not much otherwise.
 
#435 · (Edited)
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With "barely any stores of nectar or honey", plus granulated sugar on top, their chances are not good.

Sugar syrup (preferable with a little vinegar added) fed now means they can with ease store it in the comb and it will be available in the natural way to them through winter. This done right, plus any fall honey they collect, will improve their chances considerably.

There are only 3 things you need for your hive to survive winter. The bees need to be properly housed, have enough food, and be healthy. Get those 3 right and, barring accidents, they will survive. In fact it's not asking much, just the same liveable conditions that any living thing needs to survive.

Works for me, my winter survival is close to 100%.

Use white sugar not brown, brown sugar has not had impurities removed that are not good for bees. do not concern yourself with rumours that white sugar is "poison". It is not poison.

If you do feed syrup, the main risk is it can cause robbing so ask here before doing it to get advise on the correct procedure.

One medium can be rather small to survive winter, to be "properly housed", 2 boxes would be better. The only way you will get them into two boxes in time and have them draw all the comb will be by the stimulation from feeding sugar syrup. Feeding granulated sugar will not achieve this.

If you do go this way, time is running short, start now.
 
#437 ·
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Thanks mark, I have been trying to estimate how much sugar I will need for my hives this winter. I had guesstimated it to be around 22.5 lbs of sugar per hive. Your 5 lbs per month works out to be 25 lbs of sugar to cover from November 1st to March 31st.
 
#439 ·
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Solomon, Mark, and Oldtimer,

I put out a gallon of 2:1 syrup yesterday evening, and it was half gone this morning. The plan is to do this until they either stop taking it, or until it is too cold for them to take it. The feeders I am using are chicken waterers, out in the open. All my hives have top entrances, so feeding in the hive is not practical, although a frame feeder interests me.

Does the 2" rim filled with sugar still applicable with top entrances? All my equiment is homemade, and there is 3'+ of snow where we are on a fairly regular basis, so the bottom opening didn't make sense.

Thanks,
J
 
#440 ·
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John,

I have had hives with frame feeders with top entrances robbed out and destroyed, but that's probably expected. I have had no robbing problems with sugar and I have used it on hives with my 3/4" shim entrance as the spacer. These hives have full and open access to anybody who wants to walk in the hive and steal the sugar, but nobody does.

Plain sugar just doesn't have the draw for robbing. You can lay it out on the ground and bees will largely ignore it unless it gets soaked, and even then, they'll only go after the goo. They don't seem interested in sugar unless there is no other option in the hive.

I'd recommend forgetting the syrup all together and go with the sugar if it's needed. I've had great success with it and consider it the best option for feeding.
 
#441 ·
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cub, if it were me i would let them store some syrup in the comb, but be careful not to let them store so much that the broodnest becomes 'honeybound'.

you still should have some fall forage, and i would consider allowing them to store as much of that as possible and then supplement with syrup if needed to bring up to winter weight.

generally speaking, about 2/3 of the hive cavity should contain stores by the time the first frost hits.
 
#442 ·
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What squarepeg said, however the practicality of achieving that with a top entrance is limited, you cannot safely feed sugar syrup into a hive if it has a top entrance.

If the open feeding system you are using has been working, ie, the hive is filling with syrup, good. But if you do not see that syrup you are feeding end up in the desired hive, it is going somewhere else.

Just sending a hive into winter with granulated sugar only and little normal stores in the combs is a high risk strategy. You have some opposing advice here ( not unusual ;) ), so go with whichever you want. But if it was my hive, I would not consider it winter ready till it's been stimulated to build more comb and be in two boxes. Only real way to achieve that in this case without adding bees, is to first change to a bottom entrance and give the bees a few days to adapt to that. Then put a frame feeder or top feeder in and feed them syrup at a rate that forces them to build new comb. At the same time feed an occasional extra comb into mid broodnest to encourage them to produce more bees.

If you want them to winter with a top entrance, you can change back to one after syrup feeding is over.

So to me, the goal would be the hive in two boxes of drawn comb with more bees than currently, and plenty of syrup plus whatever they gather, stored in their combs. Once that has been achieved you can consider supplementary granulated sugar feed through winter although I never do that.

Secondly I would do a mite count or two, a healthy hive is a pre requisite to winter survival.

Sorry about all the conflicting advice, it happens. Just pick whichever way you want to go. But learn though, if something does not work don't just shrug your shoulders and move on. Figure out why it didn't work and what you have to change next time to make it work, that way you can get some benefit even from a loss.
 
#443 ·
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I am far from an expert, but if you are looking for a consensus I agree with Mr. Berninghausen, squarepeg and Oldtimer. I would feed as much syrup as they would take and than use the dry sugar as a insurance policy. I like feeding candy instead of dry sugar, because I find it easier to place in the hive (faster in cold weather) and I think they can access it better in a cluster (but for sure it is more work).
 
#451 ·
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For a full answer, ask me in a different section.
We are here in the no-treatment section. And you are suggesting doing something about mites, following a count. Asking what you, who recommends a mite count, suggest I should do if I find high levels of mites, seems like a very natural question to ask. Here. What should a no-treatment beekeeper do?

I'm not asking for a 'full' answer. Any answer at all will be gratefully recieved.

Mike (UK)
 
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