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Winter losses vs. Summer gains

180K views 644 replies 60 participants last post by  Oldtimer 
#1 ·
From time to time, there are complaints that there is too much bickering and arguing and people aren't getting to talk about what they want. Well, I can't do anything about that, people are people.

But what I can do and what I like to do is answer questions. So I want to give everybody the free and explicit opportunity to ask serious questions. If you want to be treatment-free, or if you are weighing your options, ask away. I want to help you. I'm not going to be answering challenges or defending my methods or viewpoint. I want to help you if you want to be helped. I want to tell you what you want to know, not what you want to hear. I had tons of questions and many of them will be the same ones you are asking now. You can even go back to 2003 and see them for yourself in the archives.

So ask away. You have my ear.
 
#2 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

solomon, it sounds like the size of your operation and mine are about the same. you have mentioned your engineering background and liking 'numbers'. can you trace back your ten years in terms of winter losses vs. summer gains, either in real numbers or percentages?

i.e. 2005-2006 season: 2 losses, 8 gains, net gain = 6 hives.
 
#3 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

I can try. I have recorded this better on my blog, so you can do in depth research there if you like, these are just the numbers as I remember them of the top of my head.

This year, I went from 10 to 23 net or so. Lost one of 11 over the last winter.

Last fall I sold two, lost four over the summer, I remember I added four new queens last year and split one hive into seven or so. Beyond that escapes me right now and I don't have time to go look it up. But my blog has it recorded several times.

My worst loss was in the winter of 2009 or so when I lost 5 of 7.
 
#5 ·
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Solomon - I have been treatment free for over five years. Every year a lot of my bees die. My bees on small cell die as fast as the bees on large cell. I followed Dee Lusby's suggestion and put them in an isolated apiary. 100% died the first winter. This year one produced 160lbs in spring and died leaving me the crop. All the dead hives leave me lots of black comb with which to win bait swarm catching challenges here on Beesource, which is very satisfying. But I do not think that Charlie properly anointed me as winner. As a moderator, can you see that he awards me the proper accolades?
 
#8 ·
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But I do not think that Charlie properly anointed me as winner. As a moderator, can you see that he awards me the proper accolades?
Its my fault Ollie, i asked Charlie for a recount and he will be auditing exactly how many swarms you caught last summer and will get to that between furlough days, vacation and sick days and time when he is not working on the 300 swarm traps he is making out of paper political signs.
 
#9 ·
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Ollie, I am under the impression that virtually all your bees are swarms you catch locally from commercial beekeepers, is that correct? Do you do any breeding of survivors?
I believe his swarm catching prowness takes advantage of "residential" beekeepers. People who have pretty hives in their backyards to show guests from the porch screen window. Oh and Charlies rooftop apiary.
 
#11 ·
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I do not know JRG, I have never been able to separate the two. I know it is done without small cell, however I have never done it. I do happen to have about two dozen large cell plastic frames, maybe I should try.

As to what to attribute my success, again I cannot say. I know genetics has a part of it, but small cell has always been a part of it.
 
#12 ·
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I think one thing to keep in mind about being treatment free is location. Those in california have it tough because of the huge influx of migratory bees. Dr. Russell mentioned one time that even great genetics can fail when you have hives close by that are mite factories. In order to be treatment free in areas where you get a lot of migratory bees passing through I think you have to use every trick in the book until those migratory beekeepers have moved on. That means drone comb usage along with screened bottoms and powder sugar dusting. Not to mention other things that may help with nosema and foulbrood. I certainly would keep the dark comb to a minimum in my brood chambers as it can contribute to foulbrood in my opinion. If some of you that have bees surviving these conditions and would be willing to do some queen exchanges I would love to get work on promoting those genetics through selective breeding. I have some queens that are two years old and went through one year of almond pollination with minimal treatments.
 
#14 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Solomon Parker > " As to what to attribute my success, again I cannot say. I know genetics has a part of it, but small cell has always been a part of it".

Would you mind elaborating a little bit on your definition of success. I'm know you have stated that you have not been keeping bees that many years so I realize your practical experience is limited to that duration, but are you basing this "success" on what percentage of colonies you manage to keep alive every year? Is there another definition you equate to this success? Certainly loosing 5 of 7 over wintered hives would not generally be considered a success. Does the fact that you use no treatments on your bees and still manage to keep "some" alive translate into this success? I do not use any treatments whatsoever on my bees and I manage to keep most of them alive. I consider this a success in itself. But if I lost 30% of my hives over winter I would not be pleased with that end result, whether or not I used treatments or not.
 
#15 ·
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I'm know you have stated that you have not been keeping bees that many years so I realize your practical experience is limited to that duration, but are you basing this "success" on what percentage of colonies you manage to keep alive every year?
I don't know how many is not that many, but I have been on Beesource for ten years and have been keeping bees for nine and a half. I generally base my idea of success on the fact that I have never lost all my bees at the same time. Lately, results have been much much better than just that.


Is there another definition you equate to this success?
Maybe, that's a pretty open ended question. I am enjoying what I am doing, some years more than others, so I guess you could say I am more successful some years than others. I'm still learning and I enjoy that as well. This year I grafted and raised queens and I was very pleased.


Does the fact that you use no treatments on your bees and still manage to keep "some" alive translate into this success?
This last year, it was 10/11. Is 90% "some?" While that was an odd a year as the year I lost all but two, my losses have been better than the national average for several years now. I feel I'm doing just fine.
 
#18 ·
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Brad, I use shims made of 3/4" material and held together in the frown by a board serving as a landing board or awning. I have been using them in awning configuration lately. Lower entrances are the same sitting on an inverted migratory style cover. Nearly half now are founded on a ten frame nuc with a single inch and a half hole in the front.I build everything but the frames. You can find plenty of pictures on my blog and website. I reduce both upper and lower in winter.

Adrian, I don't usually keep track of which ones die, though I have in the past. I do know that the three nucs that died this summer were made up of one year old queen purchased from Zia, quite a performer but mean, one swarm caught two or three years ago, and one hive purchased in 2008. All others that died this summer were new nucs. The one that died last winter I believe was a swarm. In the past I seem to lose most hives not accustomed to our short harsh winters, hives from Oregon and Georgia come to mind.
 
#21 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Hi Solomon,

I'm interested in your square/cube hive bodies.
(It's been a while since I've looked at your blog.)

1. Have you made half width boxes, so that they could also be used as 6 frame Nucs?
2. Have you run it as a two queen hive?
3. Have you tried the boxes at right angles and does it act as a queen excluder?
4. Are there disadvantages to this size box, other than the weight of a single box?

Thanks
Matthew Davey
 
#22 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

I'm interested in your square/cube hive bodies. (It's been a while since I've looked at your blog.)
Unfortunately it's been a while since I updated it. I now have a full time(ish) job while I finish up my Master's Degree. Give me some cold winter days when I can't go outside and it will all come flooding back to me.


1. Have you made half width boxes, so that they could also be used as 6 frame Nucs?
I have made one six frame medium nuc, but not any boxes separate from that. I had some lumber left over from making boxes that made shorter end walls and so I put a nuc together. I imagine I will use it next year when I start producing queens and nucs in medium equipment rather than just deeps.


2. Have you run it as a two queen hive?
I have not, though one of them did exist as a two-queen hive for a short time when the old queen was superseded the second time. She didn't survive the second time at least not for six months like she did the first.


3. Have you tried the boxes at right angles and does it act as a queen excluder?
Yes I have, and I have not seen queen excluding as an effect. I did notice brooding further out to the edges than you might normally see, but that may be a subjective viewpoint.


4. Are there disadvantages to this size box, other than the weight of a single box?
Yes, there are. First, it's an odd size, so not necessarily compatible with the rest of my equipment though you can make little boards to mitigate that. They are heavy, though a 12-14 frame medium should be no heavier than a deep. Because they are wide, they are a little more awkward to lift, your center of gravity is thrown out further than with a narrower box. I will have to keep an eye on them to make sure water doesn't pool in the bottom, but that has more to do with the materials and design I used than anything else. I have noticed quite a bit of burr comb, but that is probably a symptom of using PF-120 frames or of the bees themselves rather than the boxes. I will add a couple foundationless frames in the spring to see if I can get some controlled drone comb and cut down on burr comb.
 
#23 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

This is a little off the thread, but I am in need of a reply from someone. I have been reasonably treatment free, albeit I do sugar dusting in the late summer/early fall. i have bought into the idea of small cell and trusted the bees. I monitored this year after the last dusting and had high mite counts...averaging almost 100 with a 24 hr drop. I did a wintergreen syrup treatment which had little aggregate effect. I just did a formic acid treatment with the Mite Away 2 strips...I was scared out the wazzoo after reading the instructions. anyway, when I went in to do the deed, I had not opened the carton before going in because of the scare messages, and while at the hive discovered that the strips are too long to go across the 8 frame hive with 2" from each side as recommended. I cut them in half and placed them in the hive as the directions were drawn, but they said nothing about halving....what the hell? It is early winter, and bees are drawing back, s this can only have a helpful effect, I suspect. Was this the wrong thing to do? Should I have placed two strips lengthways in an 8 frame hive..even tho they are very robust, they are not what they have been....I obviously do NOT like chemicals.....they flat out RAN from the strips, like they flat out AVOIDED the wintergreen feed (completely in the case of a nuc)....
 
#25 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

This is a little off the thread, but I am in need of a reply from someone. I have been reasonably treatment free, albeit I do sugar dusting in the late summer/early fall. i have bought into the idea of small cell and trusted the bees. I monitored this year after the last dusting and had high mite counts...averaging almost 100 with a 24 hr drop. I did a wintergreen syrup treatment which had little aggregate effect. I just did a formic acid treatment with the Mite Away 2 strips...I was scared out the wazzoo after reading the instructions. anyway, when I went in to do the deed, I had not opened the carton before going in because of the scare messages, and while at the hive discovered that the strips are too long to go across the 8 frame hive with 2" from each side as recommended. I cut them in half and placed them in the hive as the directions were drawn, but they said nothing about halving....what the hell? It is early winter, and bees are drawing back, s this can only have a helpful effect, I suspect. Was this the wrong thing to do? Should I have placed two strips lengthways in an 8 frame hive..even tho they are very robust, they are not what they have been....I obviously do NOT like chemicals.....they flat out RAN from the strips, like they flat out AVOIDED the wintergreen feed (completely in the case of a nuc)....
You will have much better luck posting this in one of the other forums. I am surprised the post has been deleted/moved already.
 
#30 ·
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By forcing bees to use foundation of a fixed size, be it 4.9, 5.1 or 5.4, are we not eliminating their ability to adapt their size to the local conditions and climate? 4.9mm may be the ideal size for Arizona, but what about northern climates? Or wetter climates?
Dee Lusby actually made a map of what she considered natural cell sizes. You can find it on the POV section of this website. I can't find it right off the bat, but here is the Lusby's POV page: http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ed-dee-lusby/ I recommend reading the whole thing through to get a good foundation in treatment-free beekeeping. I did.

Oh, here it is. http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...ta-on-the-influence-of-cell-size/climate-map/ The very coldest and high altitude zones show 5-5.2mm according to her map.

I find that on small cell, much more than on large cell, with wax foundation, the bees are more likely to build what they want anyway. A perfectly drawn 4.9mm frame is very rare. It's not a bell curve. What I mean is, smaller foundation does not *force* anything like larger foundation seems to. Plastic is another issue.
 
#28 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

So as I understand it from you answers in this thread.

Success is anything greater than total failure.

That your acceptable threshold for results lays somewhere between 71 and 9% losses.

You then add that you enjoy what you are doing is your measure of success.

You are successful but cannot say why.

Does The above look to you like a convincing case for treatment free beekeeping? Do you have any interest in making a case for treatment free beekeeping? If so and you agree that the above does not get it done. What do you think will be required to support treatment free beekeeping?
 
#31 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Success is anything greater than total failure.
Only if you define failure as loss of all hives at one time. That is the thing that I'm trying to avoid. I find backyard beekeepers typically remain beekeepers until such time as they lose 100% of their hives at which point many of them quit. That's the very real possibility I design my systems to avoid. But there's much more involved with it, building my own equipment, rearing queens, selling nucs, all sorts of fun stuff that isn't necessarily tied to how many hives die each winter. But my first goal is a system for backyard beekeepers. They are my target audience.


That your acceptable threshold for results lays somewhere between 71 and 9% losses.
Again, pessimistically viewing my operation in this way is like buying a car based on how many wheels it has.


You then add that you enjoy what you are doing is your measure of success.
I didn't then add anything.


You are successful but cannot say why.
I have been saying why for ten years.


Does The above look to you like a convincing case for treatment free beekeeping?
The above is not my case for treatment free beekeeping.


Do you have any interest in making a case for treatment free beekeeping?
Of course I do. I'm offering to answer questions. People who ask honest questions are open minded and seeking the facts. Even if my case isn't all roses and Laffy Taffy, it is the facts. Similarly, treating doesn't guarantee survival yet the two positions are held up as opposite sides of the same coin. The truth is, if you flip a coin, you also have a third outcome, you can drop it.


What do you think will be required to support treatment free beekeeping?
It doesn't need any support. It is the default.
 
#32 ·
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I have not ysed any c hemicals this season adn now find two of my three hives queenless in November! What on earth can I do?
Pam, I cannot make any diagnoses without more information. Are you certain that the hives are queenless rather than just shutting down brood rearing for the winter?

Queenlessness is a beekeeping issue, not treatment-free issue. There are no treatments that I know of that will keep your hive from going queenless, but I do know of at least one which will give it a good chance of going queenless. In Massachusetts in November, my first guess would be that they are not queenless, just not brooding, which is what they should be doing this time of year.
 
#33 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Solomon:

I have a TBH with 3 screened air holes on the top (just below the cover), and 4 entry holes on the bottom (The two end ones are plugged with corks, which allows for entry and exit only at the lower, center of the hive.) Our weather in this area of Texas just turned cold for these parts (high 30s at night and low 60s during the day). Should I plug up additional screened holes to help the hive maintain a warmer temperature during these cold snaps? I've read of the importance of ventilation, but am concerned that there may be TOO much ventilation when these cold fronts come in.

Sondra
 
#36 ·
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Should I plug up additional screened holes to help the hive maintain a warmer temperature during these cold snaps?
If I may offer an opinion, I would let the bees decide. They can close up the ventilation if they want to with propolis. I have ventilation openings in my hives that are closed or opened by the bees to whatever extent they want. They are always a little different.

Ted
 
#35 ·
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Sondra, I like to err on the side too much ventilation. The bees heat the cluster and not the hive. I don't yet keep top bar hives though I'd like to try them out, so I can't comment much more than that.

Dan, sure, I can comment on condensation. As you know, bees eat honey during winter. Like most fuels, when "burned," honey turns into water and carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide escapes naturally as its condensation point is -70 degrees, though the lowest recorded temperature was -128 F. Just a fun fact. Anyway, for those not familiar with the process, the water vapor released by the bees will condensate on the interior of the hive if it is cold enough and the humidity is high enough. One may do a few things to keep this from happening. First, you can keep the humidity low by increasing ventilation. Second, you can insulate the hive so that the interior surfaces do not reach a low enough temperature to cause condensation. Some people use thick insulation on the roof of the hive so that any condensation will be on the walls and will run down the sides harmlessly. Water dripping on the cluster is likely to kill the colony.

My method is to increase ventilation, lowering the humidity in the hive and greatly diminishing the possibility of condensation. Having large hives with empty comb in the top few boxes over winter also helps baffle any falling water, keeping it from reaching the bees further below. This last winter, my ten frame nucs bottom boxes gave a good case study. Throughout the winter, I was able to look in the hole in the front and see the cluster a mere three inches in despite single digits and bitterly cold winds outside. For this reason and others (including infrared camera data) I am convinced that bees only heat the cluster and they are able to provide the necessary heat to keep themselves alive in all but the most unfortunate conditions such as the lid of the hive blowing off in a blizzard. I feel insulation is unnecessary and further aids the bees in unnecessary ways allowing some to survive which might not otherwise. I am also unconvinced by tales of *the chimney effect*. The one thing a hive has in it that distinguishes it from a chimney is stuff. Chimneys full of stuff don't pass fluids well. Comb makes a very effective baffle. My recommendation is to use an upper entrance on hives in the winter. A lower entrance is less important. Our hives are quite a bit different in many ways than tree hollows or underground cavities. Problems with condensation are the beekeepers fault, not the fault of the bees.
 
#37 ·
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Solomon,

I am looking for a suggestion on preparations for next year. I understand you don't have any crystal ball, but you have a lot more experience than I do. I have been a little worried about asking on Beesource because people don't seem very friendly many times. Thanks for this thread! Anyway, here is my question.

How many hives should I have prepared for next year?

Now let me give you some details. I have 5 hives going into their first winter. I hope to grow to about 12 hives. 4 of the 5 hives were from early swarms, so those queens have all overwintered. One hive is mean. I hope to catch swarms to help grow my colony count. I caught 6 this year. Now here is the real meat of my question. I want to grow my own queens and keep them in nucs until needed. Clearly, I need 7 more hives to get to 12, but how many nucs beyond that would you recommend for mating and holding queens, splits, and building comb? I am assuming that some of my hives will survive the winter, of course.

Ted

PS: I love your web site!
 
#39 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

How many hives should I have prepared for next year?
I'd say have several more than you need. For nucs, have more available than you plan to use. Make more than you plan to keep because you'll have a certain proportion of failures and dinks.

The great thing about hives is that they're not perishable if kept under cover.

PS: I love your web site!
Thanks. I'm planning an update here in the near future if you have any suggestions. I'm always looking for "frequently asked questions" to answer on the website.
 
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