Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

Winter losses vs. Summer gains

180K views 644 replies 60 participants last post by  Oldtimer 
#1 ·
From time to time, there are complaints that there is too much bickering and arguing and people aren't getting to talk about what they want. Well, I can't do anything about that, people are people.

But what I can do and what I like to do is answer questions. So I want to give everybody the free and explicit opportunity to ask serious questions. If you want to be treatment-free, or if you are weighing your options, ask away. I want to help you. I'm not going to be answering challenges or defending my methods or viewpoint. I want to help you if you want to be helped. I want to tell you what you want to know, not what you want to hear. I had tons of questions and many of them will be the same ones you are asking now. You can even go back to 2003 and see them for yourself in the archives.

So ask away. You have my ear.
 
#168 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Whalers, sorry, I did not see your post until just now. I don't get emails when Alistair posts, so I don't see anything afterwards either.

My best shot for a walkaway split is to take the queen and five frames of brood, more of the open rather than not. If it is a very large hive, you can take more brood. The idea is that the queen goes to the new location or else the new location will have many fewer bees as they will tend to stay where the queen is. If you move the queen then the foragers who don't want to change locations will go to the old hive and you'll have a more balanced population. In this way, the most bees will go to both hives, and the original location will likely pull in a bunch of honey as they won't have as much brood to take care of until the new queen starts laying. Make sure to leave eggs and/or very young brood so they can make a new queen.

I have moved on to using queenright cell starter and finisher to make queens then using queen castles to as mating nucs which then graduate up to larger nucs and hives. Walkaway splits are very inefficient in raising queens because a whole hive works for a month to make queens only one of which is allowed to be kept.
 
#169 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Thanks. I was thinking of the liquid, not a gel.

This is a purchased nuc I just hived a couple weeks ago. I see the bees bringing back lots of pollen, but they can also empty about a gallon of syrup in 2 days. There are lots of plants blooming right now and I don't know how critical it is for me to keep feeding the syrup. I'd really prefer not to open the hive more than once a week, and I don't know how many days their stores will last if I don't refill the feeder more often.
 
#172 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Yeah, I know, if we get our forecasted snow, it will be the latest snow on record here. I am concerned for my mating nucs. However, not concerned enough to feed them!

I am a hard hard man. :D

We've had nasty weather just about every Thursday for the last two months. They ought to be used to it by now. They've had nice weather five days a week, that ought to be good enough.
 
#173 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

The feeding question is never quite as simple as "will they or won't they run out of feed" it's more of a question of how much brood reduction will result if you allow stores to get too low. Most of my day today was spent feeding bees. The bees look nothing short of spectacular with queens laying like crazy but stores are getting dangerously low in some locations. Unusual to say the least but with a cool front moving in it seemed the only prudent thing to do to insure that nothing gets stunted. Each season is different but when brooding is at its peak and the honey flow is on the horizon is when demands are the greatest and when you have the most to lose.
 
#176 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

The feeding question is never quite as simple as "will they or won't they run out of feed" it's more of a question of how much brood reduction will result if you allow stores to get too low. Most of my day today was spent feeding bees. The bees look nothing short of spectacular with queens laying like crazy but stores are getting dangerously low in some locations. Unusual to say the least but with a cool front moving in it seemed the only prudent thing to do to insure that nothing gets stunted. Each season is different but when brooding is at its peak and the honey flow is on the horizon is when demands are the greatest and when you have the most to lose.
Tuff bees are tuff bees. I was born a German/Cherokee Indian and pampering is not in the vocab. When all others reported 5 and 6 frames of brood at the meetings i had spotty brood and thought the queens were failing. Hind site 20/20 they new what was going on. I love local bees. Old Mother Nature.

Hope all is well Jim,

Nate
 
#174 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Sure thing, I have a couple nucs with cut swarm cells placed in them. Pretty sure it will be a loss on as they needed to take a flight soon, not a big loss of bees but a loss of the potential gain.

I agree, the several gathering and mating days last week could have been a
god send for the even splits. Resources are there for several days, need a break Sunday.
 
#175 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Jim, you're not treatment-free and you're not a hobbyist. My focus is toward those beekeepers, and my answers will be toward their benefit and not directed toward commercial beekeepers. Commercial beekeepers have their own forum. This is the treatment-free forum. There is nearly zero overlap between the two.
 
#178 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

......There is nearly zero overlap between the two.
do you really think the bees care sol?

i'm proceeding off treatments, and i'm not commercial.

the below average temps have stumped my spring build up and my honey harvest may suffer.

the seasoned veteran makes a good point, thanks jim.
 
#179 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

I am answering questions and trying to keep it on topic, a thread where people can ask questions of a treatment free beekeeper and get answers from experience in the Treatment-free Beekeeping forum.

If they have questions or comments or concerns or points in the context of commercial beekeeping, they are free to proceed to the appropriate forum.
 
#181 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

sol's thread, public forum.

wacky weather and hampered build up does not discriminate between tf or not, commercial or hobbiest.

sol, i believe that you reported most of your losses over the years were from starvation during the summer?
 
#182 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

sol, i believe that you reported most of your losses over the years were from starvation during the summer?
I have reported that in the last couple of years, I have lost more hives during the summer. It's a bit harder to figure out what exactly got them because in the winter they're a bit more refrigerated and preserved but in the summer, not so much. Last summer, I lost three nucs and a hive. The summer before, I lost something like three hives. The other trait is that brand new hives are the ones that die in the summer, older ones are the ones that die in the winter, generally speaking.
 
#183 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Solomon:
I figured that is what happened with my question, especially since everyone is so busy this time of year.

Yes, I released both queens on April 15. Looks like one was accepted just fine. I found her, plus some capped brood, when I went into the hive the day before yesterday. She's in the TBH with the (closed) screened bottom board.

I have checked three times for the queen in the other hive. I never could find her even though she is marked. The hive numbers are dwindling, the bees seem lethargic, I see very little pollen and can't recall seeing capped stores. I saw no eggs or larvae, but I sure wish it were easier to see through my bee suit screen. I do know there was plenty of fresh, empty comb in which she could lay. I am going to put in another queen this morning and hope it's not too late. I'll leave her in the cage for a few days.

Sondra
 
#185 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Hi Solomon,

From about 30 swarms and cut-outs collected and simply boxed last year, and sent into winter without any help, I have come through with 7 survivors, which includes one outstanding queen/colony. Following advice from R.O.B. Manley, Honey Farming, London, 1946, I have removed her to a small nuc to preserve her for breeding purposes.

(It could be that these are early days, and this hive will suffer from mites later, but so far they are just fine, and I want to develop my breeding skills and system anyway)

This action had the unfortunate effect of stopping the extensive drone production in her original BB+lift box, something I had considered essential to my aim of raising vigourous and productive mite-managers.

So I'm been considering trying inserting large cell foundation into her nuc to try to get her drone numbers back.

Does this sound like a good plan - both overall and on the specific matter of preservation of the most valued queen and drone production?

On the (7 brood frame) queen preservation nuc, I'm thinking of withdrawing one or two frames regularly to stop swarming behaviours developing. I'm thinking about adding a lift too. It seems to me there is a fine line to be found between cramping her to slow her laying (and thus preserving her) and provoking swarming behaviour. Then again, if she raises swarm cells I could always pinch them for new nucs.

Again, can I ask for your thoughts about this general strategy?

Many thanks in advance,

Mike Bispham, UK
 
#186 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Again, can I ask for your thoughts about this general strategy?
Good to hear from the UK, I am a fan of your N. T. Wright, your Eddie Izzard, and the fact that I can be a fan of both at once.

I will be happy to offer you some thoughts, some of these things I have done, some I have not.

First, I have not been in the habit of setting aside a queen like that, though maybe I should be. This year, it has been quite inconvenient having my breeder queens off-site. I think I will incorporate that into my plan for next year. Another of my problems is not being able to summer a hive of much less than two deeps. They need those honey stores to make it through the summer, a problem I don't think you have. Also, for utilitarian purposes, I like to see what she's capable of, though that may mean a shortened life.

I have on a number of occasions used nucs to build comb. Nucs make good comb builders. I've found that they can draw out a comb and fill it with brood in a week under the right conditions. Then I can remove one of the older frames with honey and keep the brood population high, and maintain the ability to build comb, and yes, this also effectively limits swarming.

I also like the drone comb. I am in the habit of placing foundationless frames in hives I want to make drones and they will. Watch the term "large cell foundation" around here because that typically refers to standard size foundation in this crowd, a number of which use small cell foundation. I don't have much drone foundation myself, just a couple pieces of plastic, but I do use the foundationless frames for that purpose.

Also, around here, pinch usually means squish, but I believe it means steal for you.

What is the state of miticide usage in the UK?
 
#190 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

I am a third year bee keeper. I had one hive of Italians that I thought was doing very good and they died last winter(their second year). I now have three hives of carnolians(two are splits). I started them from nucs and they really took off. I split one hive and the one with the queen is doing well the queenless hive has a couple queen cells waiting to hatch. I want to go treatment free. I just got some small plastic frames from Mann Lake. I would hate to lose my bees while switching over. Should I treat for mites this year during transition or try something different like powder sugar?? I've heard that smoke from sumac pods kills mites, true? I really don't want poison in my hive if I can help it. Any suggestions for transition. I am reading this thread a lot....
 
#191 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Should I treat for mites this year during transition or try something different like powder sugar??
I supposed you could, but surveys show it doesn't work. I wouldn't if I were you. Increase is the key. Get numbers up, that way if losses do occur, you can absorb them.

I've heard that smoke from sumac pods kills mites, true?
I wouldn't know. The one downside to not treating with anything is that I don't really know what works and what doesn't. I will say this, the middle of the year is a really hard time to start unless you can increase, which may well be possible in your area. However, it's got to be done sooner or later, and if your bees are accustomed to having that work done for them, then they're going to have a hard time. I would recommend never using any treatment of any kind whatsoever, especially ones that will have lasting effects. Dirty comb will not help you.

This is the problem I see with the argument that "one ought to start out the usual way first and then go treatment-free later." It brings all these problems in. I say go treatment-free first. And then go big.
 
#197 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Are there many successful treatment free hives in the UK?
Nobody knows. There certainly hasn't been anything like the effort put in here as in the US. I don't know if there are any UK forums where non-treatment conversations are allowed to develop - there weren't last time I tried - so public communications about just what people are doing are as far as I know-non existent.

From private conversations I do know people are quietly working at it, and often partially succeeding. Not many are deliberately breeding toward mite resistance -again as far as I know - the 'non-treatment' routines seems to be just that, with consequent high losses. There is, or at least was, a Cornish project, but the last time I spoke with them they didn't seem to have much of a clue about the relationship between treating and resistance. There is a lot of talk about breeding, and long-standing bee-breeders organisation, but they are obsessed with restoration of the native bee. If you try to talk with them about treatments and resistance they'll just say 'the native bee will obviously be best for the UK' and carry on making black-coloured bees which they'll have to treat 'until they develop resistance'.

But I'm not well up on what goes on on the forums or anywhere else - I just do my own thing - and that seems to be working so far.

In Europe there is John Kefus of course.

Mike
 
#198 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

OK well I had a look at your site and did understand and sympathise with the cross breeding problem with non resistant stock.

But from your post I take it that you anyway, are successfully treatment free?

Reason I'm asking, well there's a few issues of similarities, I think, between your country and mine. Neither have Africanised bees, that I know of, and in my country there are no successful treatment free beekeepers, not one. That's despite me and I've discovered 2 others, making a fairly determined attempt at it but in the end failing. There is one guy here still running a good number of treatment free hives but he hasn't been going long. He has the advantage I didn't of being in a fairly isolated area, he uses the bond method.

Anyhow sorry about the rant, just wondering what I could learn from the UK situation.
 
#199 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

... from your post I take it that you anyway, are successfully treatment free?/QUOTE]

I don't treat or manipulate in any way that might obstruct the development of a resistant population. I split from what seem to be the healthiset, most productive, vigourous and trouble free hives. And I'm working at building numbers and dominating the airspace around my mating yard.

I started out with as many swarms and cut-outs from what I understood were long-standing feral colonies as I could get my hands on, and making increase quickly. I lost about 2/3rds last winter, but that's pretty much what i expected - and wanted - to happen. It was, by our standards a dreadful summer and a similarly awful winter, and I was hard on them.

I currently have 30 (apparently trouble-free) hives at varying stages of development - most this year's splits. This is the third year of an attempt to do this, and I think I now have the genetic material I need to make it work - but - we'll see. I'm optimistic that I'll lose less than a 1/3rd this winter - I can just see how much stronger they are this year.

Reason I'm asking, well there's a few issues of similarities, I think, between your country and mine. Neither have Africanised bees, that I know of, and in my country there are no successful treatment free beekeepers, not one. That's despite me and I've discovered 2 others, making a fairly determined attempt at it but in the end failing.
What have you tried?

There is one guy here still running a good number of treatment free hives but he hasn't been going long. He has the advantage I didn't of being in a fairly isolated area, he uses the bond method.

Anyhow sorry about the rant, just wondering what I could learn from the UK situation.
No probs, hope that helps. Try to get hold of good bees, increase them fast, and dominate - or at least influence - the drone activity. Where are you?

Mike (UK)
 
#201 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

"By supporting hives that would otherwise die, the beekeeper artificially subverts natural selection"

Beekeeping itself subverts natural selection. I am not sure I agree that differentiating one interference from another makes a difference. I have also seen it mentioned many places that treatment free is not simply putting bees in a hive and walking away. but that many other measures are taken. To me that is just handling the mites with alternative methods. That is not allowing natural selection to play it's roll any more than chemical treatments are. I have also seen the comments that say "I don't do anything for mites, I don't have them". But then neither do I according to my last inspection. But the colony that I cut out last March had them. pretty badly. three weeks later they didn't.

I do not agree that bees are weakened by treatments. The bees I treat are already infested. They where already weak. and that was true when the very first colony became infested. it had not been treated. so treatments are not the cause of susceptibility. Now keeping may be and I do have a strong suspicion that is true. So in all I keep a reserve of opinion that says treatment free may be barking up the right type of tree, but they need to find a bigger tree to do their barking at. I believe that beekeeping and imposing our goals and desires on the bee for centuries has lead to the bees we have today. We decided that africanized genes where bad. Bad for Who. us or the bees. How can selection fro what is good for the beekeeper result in good bees? So I see in all the picture is much broader than just mite management.
 
#203 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

>I do not agree that bees are weakened by treatments. The bees I treat are already infested. They where already weak. and that was true when the very first colony became infested. it had not been treated. so treatments are not the cause of susceptibility.

But they are contributing to susceptibility.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188

Terramycin makes them more susceptible to AFB. Fumidil makes them more susceptible to Nosema. Anything that disrupts the natural flora and fauna in the colony makes it more susceptible to pathogens and pests.

But I don't think that is the real issue. The real issue is that propping up those weak genetics contributes to weak bees in the future. It's the genetics that are the real issue. We need to keep the ones that are inherently healthy and not keep the ones that need to be propped up.
 
#212 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

how did they do for you and how did you set them up?
They do well when conditions are good. My main problems this year were queens not coming back from mating flights, which I wouldn't consider related to the type of nuc, but I could be wrong. They're set up with one frame of capped brood, one frame of honey, and an empty frame or foundation. Once there is a major portion of new capped brood, then I move them into a five frame nuc.


I think the disconnect in the rates of loss between treated and non-treated comes in what happens when you quit treating the treated group, they crash. Set up a scientific experiment with those two groups and cease treatment and the treated group will suffer higher losses. They're weak. I have no problem with the argument that both populations have similar loss rates under steady-state conditions, and yet one group is not able to handle disease without treatment. It is not a contradiction. One group requires more inputs, can't survive in the wild, etc., the other group is the opposite.
 
#205 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Did the loss surveys from last winter give any data on the percentage of loss on treated VS untreated colonies?
 
#206 ·
#207 · (Edited)
Re: Ask Questions Here!

This is a curious dilemma in the non treatment philosophy.

On one hand we get told that treating bees, keeps the bees with weak genetics alive that would have otherwise died, so interferes with natural selection.

On the other hand we get told that there is no significant difference in hives survival whether they are treated, or not.

Both opinions repeated often enough, and in this thread, we have been told both of them within the previous 4 posts.

They cannot both be true.
 
#208 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

This is a curious dilemma in the non treatment philosophy.

On one hand we get told that treating bees, keeps the bees with weak genetics alive that would have otherwise died, so interferes with natural selection.

On the other hand we get told that there is no significant difference in hives survival whether they are treated, or not.

Both opinions repeated often enough, and in this thread, we have been told both of them within the previous 4 posts.

They cannot both be true.
There is no contradiction. They can both be true. Bees under selective propagation regimes are currently surviving at about the same rate as bees under veterinary management.

Separately, the selective propagaters can argue (from their understanding of natural selection and selective husbandry) that their populations should improve in resistance year on year, and so for them for them losses will diminish over time.

The veterinary school can't make that argument.

That doesn't entirely explain why what you see as a 'dilemma' (a logical contradiction is a better description) isn't there. But it shows you the way.

Mike (UK)
 
#210 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

Correct, it doesn't, the logic in your argument is flawed.

You are saying that both could be true, ie, there may be no significant difference in hive survival between the two groups, but yet, one group could argue that their hives will improve over time but the others not argue that

The only way one group could argue that, is if there is a significant difference around hive survival and therefore selective pressure.
That is the case (although your use of the term 'selective pressure' is a bit wobbly here). Lets go through it:

If/when beekeepers simply stop treating, they'll often lose around 90% of their hives in the first year. That figure will fall year on year as the new population increasingly has the behaviours required that enable bees to manage mites thremselves. Depending on how much the beekeeper helps things along by deliberately pushing the desirable genes forward (and to the extend that s/he has the skills required to do this) the survival rates will improve faster or slower.

Depending on the number of artificially preserved (treated) hives nearby, the process may be slowed, or may never take off at all.

The 'selective pressure' here is being applied mostly by the beekeeper - its artificial, not natural. Any hives that simply perish through being left alone are part of the process of natural selection. So both natural selection and artificial selection are in play.


Just so you know where I am coming from on this, my position is that there is a significant difference in survival, treating hives can save them from death. Regardless of how some statistics may be selected and presented.
Sure it can. (I don't think the survey says it can't) But it will stop the bee population from developing the behaviours required to manage mites on their own - it will stop the development of resistance to mites that would otherwise occur.

So its a short-term solution, but also a state of 'addiction'. The more you treat, the more your bees will need treatments.

Therefore selective pressure could be possible.
Here your logic falls down. You need to distinguish between natural and artificially selection first to get things clear in your mind about what is happening. Then read up on 'selective pressure' to gain a clear understanding of how that term is used in discussions about the effects due to the fact that behaviours and other qualities are _inherited_.

Which does not mean theory is always the reality. But, it is possible.
Theory is sound to the extent that it can be shown to be in step with reality. The theory of natural selection for the fittest strains, and its application to husbandry, have been massively explored, and vastly tested for over 200 years. It has been shown, overwhelmingly, to be sound.

You need to have a basic understanding of the way it works to be able to begin to apply it.

Its application in beekeeping, in the context of varroa, has been amply demonstrated.

I'd advise: keep studying, and talking, and form a new plan of attack to move over to non-treatment management. If you go at it half-cocked you are likely to fail again.

You could do a lot worse than take one of Marla Spivak's courses, and ask questions on the FeralBeeProject list. It isn't hard - but you do have to do the right sorts of things.
Mike (UK)
 
#282 ·
Re: Ask Questions Here!

I'd advise: keep studying, and talking, and form a new plan of attack to move over to non-treatment management. If you go at it half-cocked you are likely to fail again.
Mike (UK)
Thanks again for the advise. As a starting point to help me form the new plan, what specifically, was wrong or half cocked, with my last plan of attack?

So I'll know what to change.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top