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Winter losses vs. Summer gains

180K views 644 replies 60 participants last post by  Oldtimer 
#1 ·
From time to time, there are complaints that there is too much bickering and arguing and people aren't getting to talk about what they want. Well, I can't do anything about that, people are people.

But what I can do and what I like to do is answer questions. So I want to give everybody the free and explicit opportunity to ask serious questions. If you want to be treatment-free, or if you are weighing your options, ask away. I want to help you. I'm not going to be answering challenges or defending my methods or viewpoint. I want to help you if you want to be helped. I want to tell you what you want to know, not what you want to hear. I had tons of questions and many of them will be the same ones you are asking now. You can even go back to 2003 and see them for yourself in the archives.

So ask away. You have my ear.
 
#38 ·
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Thank you for the summery. I have a follow up question. Would you make any alterations to your conclusion based on a substantially colder climate. I also am keeping boxes on this year and use a top entrance. However I am 13 degrees colder than you on average and think top insulation is quite beneficial (I have not had winter a winter loss yet, but have had several crash due to mites in the fall), and I have not had the courage to not insulate.
 
#40 ·
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Would you make any alterations to your conclusion based on a substantially colder climate.
That's a good question. There are those who swear by insulation as you'll find around here. I have a couple of ways to think about it. First is mathematically. I keep such large hives and the local strain of bees tend to keep quite small clusters. Therefore, mathematically speaking, the hive is significantly larger than the hive and no insulation would do any good as the heat will still escape at a greater rate than the bees can create it.

On another level, I look at Michael Bush whose bees go uninsulated (though many are on 14 hive pallets) and he has appalling weather conditions with 60 mile an hour winds and temperatures at -20 and lower for extended periods of time. Virtually all his hives have upper entrances and the lion's share have lower vents of sorts as well. A good portion I saw had no wind breaks whatsoever. His hives do pretty well as long as the wind doesn't blow the bricks off the lid which does happen from time to time.

The hive will gain some temperature from the presence of the cluster of course, the question is how much and where it goes and the effect of humidity. What is true is that "plenty of ventilation" will remove water vapor, but it will also drastically reduce the temperature in the hive.

Other than this, I cannot give you too much more. Your record cold temps are 20-30 degrees below the records here and 30-40 below where I grew up in Oregon, so you're kind of out of my realm.
 
#44 ·
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Ted I read somewhere, I forgot if it was from Mike Bush or a book, it wasnt from the forum. To have one nuc for every two hives. I keep six hives and eight nucs, because thats all I can fit in my backyard. I really like the nucs I wish I had more, they are fun to play and experiment with. I have all eight frame mediums, six boxes per hive. If I run out of boxes I can pull a couple off harvest the honey, and throw them back on, that hasent happened yet. The nucs are all five frame medium, two boxes each.

Wikipedia/dink = A woman in the James Bond movie Goldfinger.

Steve
 
#47 ·
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The nucs are all five frame medium, two boxes each.
OK, that leads to some more questions:

If an 8 frame medium is 1/2 a 10 frame deep and a regular nuc is a 5 frame deep, why not just use one 8 frame medium for a nuc? Is it because of the vertical brood nest? Your 5 frame nucs with two boxes are only a little bigger than an 8 frame medium also.

Do you have to feed your nucs to get them through the winter? Of course your winters are pretty mild, but how much honey can they have going into winter? Certainly not as much as they recommend for a full hive. The fact that they are nucs keeps the population small, therefore the winter cluster is small and they don't need as much food?

I was thinking about just putting the nucs on a shelf unit of some sort, with them stacked on the shelf. Is there any reason why that would not work? They might be a little hard to manage if there wasn't room behind them, but that shouldn't bee too bad.

I was thinking about making 8 frame boxes that have a slot in the ends where I can put a piece of 1/4 plywood or hardboard to make a 4 frame nuc to use as queen castles or stacked nucs. Would that work, do you think? Can you overwinter queen castles if they only have 4 frames or do you have to put them in a larger hive for overwintering?

Ted
 
#45 ·
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Sondra, I will take a shot at an answer to your question. You are keeping bees not having them. pat yourself on the back.

On the issue of a "Dink" I don't know if comments about this are just starting to stand out to me or if there is suddenly the appearance of them. But I ran into one of this this past summer. it was a swarm I caught and put in a top bar hive back at the beginning of June.

My question is. Do they ever get going or will they remain a lethargic colony? I chose to leave them alone and see what happens next spring but if their is no hope I could have used the bee population to boost two nucs I started. I may still get weather warm enough to combine before winter sets in. Only 41 degrees this morning. today may look like a good one to attempt it.
 
#46 ·
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Do they ever get going or will they remain a lethargic colony?
I may have mentioned this before, or may not have been clear about it. I have found that even if they are not the sort to build up and bring in honey, they still seem to do well in five frame nucs drawing out a frame of foundation at a time. Perhaps it has something to do with the natural size of a colony of bees. Give me twenty years and maybe I'll have a better answer and a bigger sample size.
 
#48 ·
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'Tis the season for planning next year, and one of the things I'm considering is working at getting small cell or foundationless frames drawn. Do you have a preference and any techniques to pass along? I currently use Permadent plastic foundation in wooden frames, the Parmadent gets painted with my own (melted) cappings.
 
#49 ·
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Ted, I wish I had more info for you about overwintering nucs, but I haven't gotten there yet. I will tell you that experimentation is a lot of fun, sometimes even if it fails.

'Tis the season for planning next year, and one of the things I'm considering is working at getting small cell or foundationless frames drawn. Do you have a preference and any techniques to pass along?
Foundationless will be easy as long as you are not concerned about what sort of comb you get. The bees will like it just fine, but you may not. If you want to get brood comb, it needs to be right in the middle of the broodnest, early in the season. As far as getting small cell done quickly, I'd say your best option is Mann Lake PF-1xx frames. They are drawn out acceptably more than 90% of the time. However, they still have all the downfalls of plastic foundation. Some beekeepers have cut out the foundation and used wooden frames. Barry posted in a thread about that, you can find it somewhere in TFB.
 
#50 ·
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Taydeko you pretty much answered all of your own questions Ted. I just asked Mike Palmer about the 8 frame medium as opposed to the nuc for overwintering, and the answer was "the bees like to work up, not across. And yes the nucs dont need as much food as a hive, theres not as many bees. I dont know how your winters are, but mine are pretty mild. It didnt even get in the 20s last year. I would say the avg for dec-jan is 40. I just saw in a post on beesource that bees use the least amount of stores at 40 degrees. I dont see why the shelf wouldnt work for overwintering because you wont be doing any inspections. I dont think that you would want them that way permmanently. 4 frames for overwintering? I wouldnt try it, but if they were stacked to 8 frames, is a differnt story. Steve
 
#51 ·
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Andrew I am getting ready to put all of my bees on small cell. I asked Mike Bush what I should do, and he told me to wait for the flow this spring, and start putting them in the middle of the brood nest a couple at a time. I plan on moving my capped brood above an excluder and replacing the brood with small cell foundation. And then letting them use old brood combs for honey. I am cutting out PF foundation like Barry did, and putting it in wood frames. I also plan to use all of my nucs for comb factories, to help draw out all of the small cell. Steve
 
#54 ·
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Sol can you tell me what your drone managment practices's are?
My only drone management practices are to move frames with excessive amounts of drone (more than 10-20%) to the outside of the broodnest and eventually up to the supers. I will occasionally scratch open some drone brood to check mite levels, but that's about it. Even so, some hives will produce more drones than others, filling up every bit of that 10% while others may ignore it or only fill what's inside the sphere of the broodnest.
 
#53 ·
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Solomon:

I went up to my TBH the other day and saw no activity at the entrance. I put a Boardman feeder of honey inside the hive, and closed it up immediately. Within less than a minute, the entries looked like O'Hare airport. The bees were coming in so quickly that they were hitting up against the observation window on the other side of the hive. Serious robbing, I assume. My question is, how the heck did other bees know so quickly that it was time to rob? Can bees smell a food source that quickly? It was as if they had scouts hanging around my hive, just waiting.

Thanks for your time and input.

Sondra
 
#55 ·
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I went up to my TBH the other day and saw no activity at the entrance. I put a Boardman feeder of honey inside the hive, and closed it up immediately. Within less than a minute, the entries looked like O'Hare airport. The bees were coming in so quickly that they were hitting up against the observation window on the other side of the hive. Serious robbing, I assume. My question is, how the heck did other bees know so quickly that it was time to rob? Can bees smell a food source that quickly? It was as if they had scouts hanging around my hive, just waiting.
I believe the interpretation of what you are seeing may be a little off. I would submit that the bees smacking into the hive are the ones that belong in the hive and you've blocked their access. It is impossible for robbers to get the scent that quickly, unless the hive is dead and they were already coming and going as they please, in which case the whole story is over.

Hives always need access to the outside in flying weather. They need to eliminate waste, collect water or pollen or nectar if it is available and new foragers need to orient.

Bees that belong in a hive will usually fly right in, maybe landing within just an inch or so from the entrance and crawling the rest of the way. Robbers will fly around, following the scent looking for an opening. Don't confuse them for new foragers, they will fly back and forth, keeping the entrance in sight as they get further and further from the hive. Every few minutes they will come back and land, later to take off again. Some times during the day, I have found, new foragers will be out in force orienting, usually in the evening, but it may be different among different populations. Robbers will try to get in screened entrances, the home bees will know where the real entrances are.

In summary: Don't feed unless it is necessary, unless you know feed is needed, otherwise you're just inviting problems. I don't recommend ever using a Boardman feeder. If feeding is necessary, this time of year calls for the thickest syrup you can make or granulated sugar. When the weather gets cold enough, they will quit taking the syrup.
 
#58 ·
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He uses division board feeders. Like the one on the right in this picture: http://parkerfarms.biz/feeding.html#Division_Board_Feeder

These are both from Kirk Webster's operation, but they're both in Vermont and they both use the same feeders as far as I'm aware.
 
#59 ·
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Bees will take feed from an inverted can or bottle placed directly over a cluster at far lower temps than they will from a division board feeder.
 
#60 ·
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The question was " what kind of a feeder can you use to feed bees in the middle of the winter in Vermont" I'm sure that Webster and Palmer use division board feeders in their operations, but I doubt very much that your going to find them filled with syrup in the middle of a Vermont winter. I also agree with Jim.
 
#61 ·
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Dear Solomon:
Please let me clarify. Usually there are obvious guards at the entries. I have blocked no entries, as you said earlier to err on the side of too much ventilation. Good advice, because the weather is moving into the 80s here again.
What I meant about the observation window is that the bees were flying in so quickly from the entrance side that they were slamming into the BACK side. (This is a top-bar hive.) No guards, or at least not a strong enough force to monitor the entrances. I have never seen this hive without guards.
I do think they recently swarmed. It used to be a spooky-strong hive only a few weeks ago. I saw two empty queen cups, and my hive recently went from having bees crawling all over the inside of the hive, to being down in numbers, lethargic and unmotivated-looking.
I will take your advice and stop the feeding. They do have capped stores. I'm thinking I need to make sure this hive is queen-right. I see no eggs, and just a marginal amount of capped brood.
(P.S.: The only reason I use a Boardman is because I can actually place it INSIDE the top bar hive, not out in the open like it's designed to do for a Lang.)
I think the hive may be weakened due to a swarm, and I set them up the other day for serious robbing, even though the feeder was hidden inside the TBH.
What do you think???

Sondra
 
#64 ·
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What do you think???
I'm not sure what to think, it's hard to troubleshoot without seeing things. I'm a visual thinker. If they did swarm, it's possible they have a hatched virgin running around the hive and time will tell what's going on. Generally speaking, doing nothing rarely makes things worse.
 
#65 ·
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I think in a recent post you indicated that you don't requeen until after the main honey flow is over. That surprised me. Can you explain the rationale?
Anything you do in the hive during the productive times of the year will have some effect on hive operations. Changing out queens (especially if you do something like a walk away split) will have more effect and leave time during which there is no new brood being produced. You want your hives to have all the chance they can to bring in honey. That's also why I use queenright cell builders, because the original hive can continue on without much interruption. Even if you do major things before the flow, you're still interrupting the production of brood which will affect the field force during the flow.

Once the flow is mostly over, you know what hives produced and what ones didn't, you can replace the worst ones. At the beginning of the year, I use the slowest builders for brood for mating nucs. Those hives weren't likely to make any honey anyway. It's an adaptation of Michael Palmer's methods. He advocates leaving the good production hives alone during the flow. Split up the weaker hives for nucs and such, but don't make queens from them.
 
#66 ·
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Hi SOLOMON i'm a third year beekeeper with the first being a failure. At the begining of this year i had 3 hive that i over wintered from the year before.
The 3 hives where nucs i got off a apiary here in PA . Any way this year i made out of them hives 5 splits cought 8 swarms{from my hives i'm guessing} and i bought 3 more nucs from another apiary in PA. and i raised some queens Going in to this winter i had 17 hives and 2=3 box nucs . I have lost 5 hives so far and 3 i knew had real high mite counts and all where the 3 oridinal hives i started with.
Then i lost one to a late swarm in sept.{i cought it} and it may been mite pressure that made them swarm any way that hive truned into a dinky and died out. Then this last week we had a nice day close to 70 and i walked up around my be yards and i had 2 hives that looked like they where bring in alot of necter and i know one was being robbed and one was doing the robbing anyway the next day the temps. droped and i went up and did the ear to the entrance and sure enough i had another deid hive this one was weak going into winter and i know it was going to be lucky if it made it.So now i have 13 strong hives and 2 strong 3=box nucs what should i be doing come spring as far a SPM and varroa destructor and if i want to allways have 10 strong hives how many nucs would you work with? I don't ever want to buy bee's again do you think i can raise good bees{mite resistant } on my 12 acers i think i'm the only person with bee's for many miles and theres not much agricultural growing of much so i think i'm isolated . Thank you .
 
#67 ·
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GLOCK;873766 if i want to allways have 10 strong hives how many nucs would you work with?[/QUOTE said:
I've come to the conclusion here that nucs don't work year 'round. I just don't have the conditions. Nucs pretty consistently die in the summer and there's no fall flow to speak of so they don't work going into winter either. They certainly have their place, I use them as stepping stones to get colonies into bigger hives. But for me, they are not useful after June.

I do however have a goal number of hives to keep. I want to have about 20 hives. I have three apiaries, two with 8 hive stands, and the home apiary has 9 to 11. I figure if those are all filled going into winter, I should have right about the correct number of hives come spring. Your mileage may vary, but the same concept should serve.
 
#68 ·
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good answer. thanks sol.

i'm doing the twenty hives spread over three yards operation too. one yard will be exclusively for nucs, and the other two pretty much for production. the goal is to have the nuc yard sold off by fall.
 
#70 ·
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Hi Solomon,

I have spring prep question. I have a single hive (1 deep and two mediums). Assuming that it survives I am looking to increase by splitting this hive in the spring, but I need to decide soon how many queens to order. Would it be reasonable to order two queens and expect to split this hive 3 ways. This will be my first split(s), and I want to make sure that I have realistic expectations. I have two nuc's on order already, with the plan to go into next winter with ~5 hives.

Thanks,
 
#72 ·
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Would it be reasonable to order two queens and expect to split this hive 3 ways.
While I can't speak to the precise conditions of the area or the hives, I see no reason why a reasonably strong hive could not be split into three especially with queens being provided. My mating nucs consist of one frame of brood and one frame of honey and the ones with good hatched and mated queens go into winter occupying more than ten frames and not having been fed. That being said, conditions and results will vary.

Remember to prepare ahead of time for equipment needs. It's no fun getting out there on the day and realizing you don't have enough lids or something else.
 
#71 ·
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Not a question - Sorry Sol.

Just a hearty Thank You! for hosting just such a thread as this. It is a great community service.

I also feel it is a gutsy move deserving appreciation because this forum is too often used for personal attacks instead of good solid discussion. Having suffered several myself, I applaud your courage for putting yourself out here.

Good Job
 
#73 ·
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Here's one for you Solomon.

I want to try something this year but before I do I would like some feedback. In an attempt to give my stock a better chance at surviving without treatment (chemicals) I am looking to order up "Survivor" trait queens and put the survivor queen in the package to be released in place of the queen that came with the package. (The replacement queen would be added the same day I get the package.) I have purchased "stock" packages of bees since beginning beekeeping and they simply dont last. Therefore I end up purchasing more bees each year. I want to attempt to upgrade my hives with queens that are bred to survive treatment free.

So two questions. Anyone see a problem with this? If so what would it be?

Second question - Can you suggest someone who sells "survivor" queens. I know of Oliverez (sp?) but would like to look into others just for comparison purposes.

Dont get hung up on the logistics of getting them both at the same time, I think I have that handled.
 
#74 ·
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So two questions. Anyone see a problem with this? If so what would it be?
Sounds like a plan, however any package has less than stellar chances of surviving in my view. I prefer nucs. Give the bees plenty of time to get accustomed to the new queen after they've been stuck in that cage with the old one for several days.



Second question - Can you suggest someone who sells "survivor" queens. I know of Oliverez (sp?) but would like to look into others just for comparison purposes.
Check Old Sol in Rogue River. Other than that I don't know. I haven't lived in Oregon for eight years.


Dont get hung up on the logistics of getting them both at the same time, I think I have that handled.
Okay. ;)
 
#83 ·
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So by plenty of time for the bees to adjust to the new queen you mean days? I'm thinking by the time they can free her from the cage they should of had enough time to adjust. What do you think?
If the cage is in with the package bees for 2 days before it is released, is usually enough. However if you want acceptance virtually guaranteed, 4 days. But most people shoot for 2-3 days. ( Which includes mailing time ).

Starting with packages is fine, long as it's done right. Less skill is needed for nucs, because they are a fully set up hive with their own dynamics and brood to hold them together etc, it's just a case of putting them in a new box. But with packages, they are a "loose coalition" of bees, who will have no problem drifting to the hive next door.

So experienced beekeepers will try to install packages in such a way as to minimise drifting. For a small hobbyist that can be done by sprinkling the bees with a little water before dumping them in the hive, hives not too close to each other, and doing it late in the day. If you can, putting a frame of brood in with the package will hugely help stabilise the hive.

From a treatment free perspective, packages, rather than nucs, are the way to go. Because packages come with bees only, and no comb. Comb that comes with nucs is often of unknown history, ie what it could be harbouring in the way of viruses and past residual treatments.

Another thought, don't know how many packages you are planning on, but the most risky time in terms of queen survival is during and immediately after the install. As the queens that come with the packages are somewhat sacrificial, but your "survivor" queens will not be, a suggestion could be to start the packages with the queens they come with, that way if any are lost it's the ones you didn't really want anyway. Give the packages perhaps 3 weeks to get stabilized, and then introduce the survivor queens. If any packages did not make it because the bees drifted to other hives, those hives could be split at that time, meaning you get back to the origional number of hives you wanted to achieve.

Just my 2 cents.
 
#76 ·
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Should be. This is more of a general beekeeping question, and one with which I don't have any experience. Lots of people are going to tell you it will work just fine. Few of them will have done it.

Sorry I don't have anything solid for you, I'm not fond of packages. I have about 100% success with putting queens in freshly queenless splits. That's what I like to do.
 
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