Page 31 of 33 FirstFirst ... 212930313233 LastLast
Results 601 to 620 of 645
  1. #601

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    And all were examined for evidence of mites and brood diseases of which there were none.
    Ok. Not a single loss from varroa/diseaes then. How many died through the last ten years in total? (Not from varroa.) It also would be nice to get an average percentage of colony losses each year. Just to compare. Thank you.

  2. #602

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    It seems to me it would be obvious, 0% treated, like I have been doing for ten years.
    I did the same with some survival apiaries, too. Ten years. All natural: honey, no sugar, fixed comb - no frames. No swarm preventions, no splitting, no harvesting - nothing. Would be interested in your overall losses, too, during that decade. Thanks.

  3. #603
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,033

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    I did the same with some survival apiaries, too. Ten years. All natural: honey, no sugar, fixed comb - no frames. No swarm preventions, no splitting, no harvesting - nothing.
    That doesn't sound like beekeeping.


    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Would be interested in your overall losses, too, during that decade.
    Freely available on this website, my website, and my blog. The last two winters I have lost a single colony, 1/23 and 1/11. The most I've ever lost in a single year was 5/7 the winter of 2009, their first exposure to +/- 0 degree temps. My first batch of 20 was reduced to 5 in 5 years, average loss of 3/yr with no splitting, 2003-2008. I have always been fully open and honest with raw numbers.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  4. #604

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Thanks. So about 22 hives in total, right.

  5. #605
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,425

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    >Ok. Not a single loss from varroa/diseaes then. How many died through the last ten years in total? (Not from varroa.) It also would be nice to get an average percentage of colony losses each year.

    I did not keep a specific tally. An apiary is a kind of super-superorganism. Splits make up losses (which would otherwise be swarms). Most of my losses were during the time I was not here to manage them at all and in a winter where it was -27 F (-33 C) every night for several weeks.

    Winter losses are all over the place. Fall flows play into it as it gives you young bees. Sometimes there is no fall flow. When I'm here, if that happens, I give them some pollen and maybe feed syrup. We also get winters that vary greatly. Some winters are -27 F (-33 C) every night for several weeks. Some never get much below 0 F (-18 C). On rare occasions there is not a flying day from October to April. Usually there is some flying days somewhere in the middle of winter. So some winters losses run maybe 5-10%. Some winters more like 30%. I consider 10% typical with a typical winter. I have seen the first killing frost as early as September and as late as Christmas. The last killing frost could be as early as April or as late as May. This last year it was May. A typical winter is a winter following at least a little bit of a fall flow where we have a couple of weeks of -10 F (-23 C) and a few days somewhere in the middle of winter for the bees to take cleansing flights. With a strong fall flow, some flying time in winter and nothing below 0 F losses are at about 2%.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #606
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,033

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Thanks. So about 22 hives in total, right.
    That would be a pretty good record considering I have 32 now.

    I've probably had a total of 90 or so if you count each different queen as a different hive as I do. Of course some were sold, many combined. I've probably had less than 30 actually die.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  7. #607
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,514

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    If I look into nature I see strong creatures with a good health. What have been showed me by some treatment free beekeepers was far away from it.
    As Daniel says below, you are only seeing the few who thrive - because they have the best genes of their generation. (And also to be fair, yes, they likely got a good start in life. Breeders ave a cautionary maxim for use in evaluation for breeding purposes: 'Well bred or well fed?)

    That their parents were able to arrange that good start is another feature that counts in their favour.)

    You are not seeing the many who failed, whether quickly or slowly (Nature usually arranges for things to go quickly - lack of vigour leads to attacks of one kind or another that finish the weak off mercifully)

    This is an important point Bernhard that I'd urge you to consider well. Its been estimated (by I think Seeley) that in nature something in the regeon of 3/4 of swarms don't make it through their first winter. (Its the early ones that tend to pull through). Nature is harsh. Its a competition in which losers frequently perish. Its ugly. But that is how health is maintained in a population. Interfere with 'hospital hives' and you downgrade the health of the population. That's just a fact.

    Using a 'Hard Bond' approach is simply arranging for more or less what would happen anyway to occur in one place, where you can see it. There is no ethical difficulty. You can always finish them off quickly if you think that appropriate - or arrange to be able to requeen.

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    I also asked Michael, how many hives in total were killed in his project so far, excuse: let die.
    That isn't killing hives. Its allowing nature's heath-seeking mechanism to do its work. What populations need - positively need - is for the weak to be removed from the breeding pool. That's most effectively done by termination.

    Try this: a unusually fierce winter will kill off many individuals, but the survivors are more than usually well selected, and the populations will, all else being equal, rebuild faster than usual as a result. That's elegant - and the more you look at the multiple mechanisms of natural selection, the you more realise just how beautifully elegant it all is.

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    From what I distilled from successful full-stop treatment free beekeepers, is, that they usually start with a high number of hives. Minimum 100, mostly 500-1,000 colonies. This is another start going treatment free, because the probability that there is a colony that adapts, is much higher than starting with one or two hives. Numbers do matter.
    I agree. The more you have the more opportunity for corkers to pop up, from which you can make increase and requeen.

    More importantly _as long as your hives contain a good proportion of resistant stocks_ the greater the likelyhood of transmission of desirable genes down the drone side. This reduces failures due to matings with lousy (treated) drones)

    (Michael Bush writes elsewhere recently that feral stock _are_ doing selection/health raising work for you. This is true - _in some places._ Where it is stalled due to a high population of treated colonies it is necessary to work harder to maintain resistance. This means more hives containing more drones, and spreading them around constructively. Some lucky people have thriving ferals - some don't; most probably don't really know.)

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Also most of them are experienced beekeepers, very experienced beekeepers. Bees don't die from beekeeper faults in their hands.
    Good point. I'm learning more about practical beekeeping every year, and hopefully reducing unneccessary losses as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Bottom line. For beginners with a couple of hives it is more difficult if not impossible to go treatment free from now to tomorrow. Full stop.
    Unless the feral situation is good it will be impossible. Matings with a majority of non resistant drones will lose any resistance in each generation. You need a good number, and you need (preferably the very best) to be producing plenty of drones. That is why I have focussed on making increase (while trying to mimimise any positive effect on reducing varroa splitting has beccause that would give me false resistance readings, making selection difficult)

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    It is advisable for them to use slow approach. No haste, take your time. Beekeeping itself is difficult, learn bees first. Than go treatment free, slowly. It may need 50-100 years to get there, so there is no reason to run.
    All the while you maintain 'hospital hives' undermine your ferals - unless you take action to stop that happening. That in turn undermines your own efforts.

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    It would be good, if the big names in the treatment free world also would advise beginners to take the slow route. Full stop is not the only way, it is one way. And there are prerequisites to it: experience in beekeeping, high number of hives.
    Understanding the key mechanisms is the important thing. Those mechanisms are the stuff of the science and art of breeding (made harder by open mating). This is, otherwise, straightforward population husbandry.

    Talking plenty about the principles and methods of population husbandry, applied to bees, will allow anyone who wants to try to design approaches that suit their own circumstances to maximise their chances of success.

    This is identifying clearly the key problem/solution arena, and prioritising it, letting peripheral issues take their proper (secondary) place.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  8. #608

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Austrian beekeeper Alois Wallner - selection for bees which attack/bite varroa
    http://www.voralpenhonig.at/default_en.htm

    Juhani Lunden, Finish beekeeper. He treated mites with oxalic dribbling only, giving less every winter. Does not treat anymore, not on small cell.
    http://www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.htm
    "Do nothing. Time is too precious to waste." Buddha

  9. #609
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,033

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Sasha, these are excellent websites and exactly what I was looking for.

    It was interesting to read some of the details, the Wallner case focusing on clean (if I understand that term correctly) wax.

    The Lunden case was interesting one as well but needs some parsing. First, it was admitted that the Bond style apiary was kept in a way which disadvantaged the bees in overwintering. And while there were other issues involved, they all died ultimately. The second thing I wanted to explore was the nature of the treatment. The treatment was as you say, less each winter. That's kinda like putting the wall closer to the edge of the cliff until the animal learns how to fly, which is more or less Bond Lite in my view.

    Thank you for these links Sasha, very educational.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  10. #610

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    The balance is not disturbed within the hive only. I learned from Dean: No bee is an island. Neither is a beehive. No colony is an island. It is embedded into an environment. And this environment is out of balance, badly! At least here where I live.

    You can't save a colony that is embedded within a bad environment. Just a thought that I want to share.

    For this reason there are no ferals here. I found a bee tree, but this tree looses it's colonies each winter. Every year a swarm moves in. Every winter it dies out. This goes quite some time. Year after year.







    It's the environment here that may be a factor to consider, too. Nothing really thrives in an environment out of balance.

  11. #611
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Mike[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Mike do you know this, or is it one of your theories presented as if fact?

    That's not the way varroa specific uncapping behaviour works over here, so can you link something authoritative to back your claim?

    .
    Oldtimer... Fact : I see it all the time.

  12. #612
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,727

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Not sure you understand Tim. We were talking about large mite family uncapping vs small mite family uncapping, which I doubt you are seeing. But if you are seeing it, at what ratio?

    I think you didn't quite read what I said properly, and are just talking about VSH uncapping in general, which many of us me included see all the time too.

    To se what I was referring to earlier, requires a microscope and a lot of research time.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #613

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Sasha, these are excellent websites and exactly what I was looking for.

    It was interesting to read some of the details, the Wallner case focusing on clean (if I understand that term correctly) wax.

    The Lunden case was interesting one as well but needs some parsing. First, it was admitted that the Bond style apiary was kept in a way which disadvantaged the bees in overwintering. And while there were other issues involved, they all died ultimately. The second thing I wanted to explore was the nature of the treatment. The treatment was as you say, less each winter. That's kinda like putting the wall closer to the edge of the cliff until the animal learns how to fly, which is more or less Bond Lite in my view.

    Thank you for these links Sasha, very educational.
    They eventually learned how to fly...
    http://www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

    Donīt ask how many mites there are, I do not know, only some 10 powder sugar tests from breeders were made and showded about 2-5% infestation in adult bees in early June.

    The next 12 years will be spent breeding them to gather as much honey as they used to. But as in all other animal and plant breeding, resistance comes with a price, the varroa resistant bees will never gather as much as the normal ones. Honey production is the only valid measure for varroa resistance.

    The picture from this week, feeders were removed.
    DSC_0130.jpg

  14. #614
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,514

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    The next 12 years will be spent breeding them to gather as much honey as they used to. But as in all other animal and plant breeding, resistance comes with a price, the varroa resistant bees will never gather as much as the normal ones.
    What makes you think that? What is the scientific evidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Honey production is the only valid measure for varroa resistance.
    I agree its a good measure - given (properly) untreated bees - but why would it be the only valid measure? Less productive bees that thrive without treatments may be just as much resistant as more productive ones.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  15. #615
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Athens, OH
    Posts
    2,647

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    What's the point of resistant bees that don't produce honey?
    Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. -Frank Zappa

  16. #616
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,425

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    >What's the point of resistant bees that don't produce honey?

    Not much, I guess pollination. But where is the evidence that is true? I think that may be the result of aggressive breeding for just resistance, but if you select for productive, healthy, gentle bees then you can select the combinations of many traits, that give you that.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  17. #617

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    What makes you think that? What is the scientific evidence?



    I agree its a good measure - given (properly) untreated bees - but why would it be the only valid measure? Less productive bees that thrive without treatments may be just as much resistant as more productive ones.

    Mike (UK)
    This is what I ment:
    Imagine there are two beekeeperes who have managed to breed varroa resistant bees. I think it is irrelevant, what causes the resistance or if the other trait is 100% effective and the other one 95%, the only real measure is the honeyproduction (or the overall economy, "more honey with less work" as Brother Adam said)

    In the end, there is no point of counting mites or freesing pieces of brood etc. Actually there is no point in in even today, as we do not know how these measurements correlate with varroa resistance.
    As cg3 pointed out, there is no point of resistant bees, which donīt produce honey.

  18. #618
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,514

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    I think it is irrelevant, what causes the resistance or if the other trait is 100% effective and the other one 95%, the only real measure is the honeyproduction (or the overall economy, "more honey with less work" as Brother Adam said)
    [...]
    As cg3 pointed out, there is no point of resistant bees, which donīt produce honey
    That's just your opinion. You are prioritising honey production. That's one measure.

    Self suffiency is for me a more important measure. I'd rather have bees that thrive without my attention, gathering a reasonable amount of honey, than bees that get more but need attention.

    Trying to maximise production at any cost is what got us into this mess in the first place, and what keeps us here.

    Working toward the goal of genetically diverse, self-sufficient, locally adapted bees seems to me to be a more reliable aim for the long term.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  19. #619
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    2,839

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    As cg3 pointed out, there is no point of resistant bees, which donīt produce honey.
    I will second that this is only your opinion. My interest in bees is to produce hives for almond pollination. What do I care about honey production? I care about bee production.

    But on the subject of varroa and honey production. IN my first year my only hive was moving along just as i expected until about mid July. When suddenly all production halted. I mentioned it a couple of times on this site and was told most likely my flow had stopped. Eventually I discovered varroa in the hive fairly heavily. It is now my opinion that it was the varroa infestation that brought the production of this otherwise healthy looking hive to a near stand still. Once treated they started producing again. This year this same hive mite free never showed no slow down in July. Mites do more than just kill colonies.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  20. #620
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,727

    Default Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

    If you want good pollinators, my guess is the best honey makers are also the best pollinators.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

Page 31 of 33 FirstFirst ... 212930313233 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads