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  1. #361
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by cg3 View Post
    I've always heard that queens rarely mate with drones from the same yard.
    Can you substantiate that with scientific studies, or is it guesswork?

    Both Manley and Ruttner advocate stationing large hives containing desirable genetics around the mating yard. I think its simply a case of the more effort you put in to have your own drones impregnate your queens, the more likely it is to be so.

    I can't imagine the bees use a rulebook that disqualifies drone on the same property. All else being equal I'd have thought that being nearby increased the chances without limit. I'd be interested in any proper studies that show things are otherwise.

    Mike
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  2. #362
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Can you substantiate that with scientific studies, or is it guesswork?

    Mike
    I can't quote chapter and verse or site a study, but I have heard people like Larry Conner say that queens fly farther away from their home than drones do to find mates. Maybe it could be found in one of his books about queen rearing.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  3. #363
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I can't quote chapter and verse or site a study, but I have heard people like Larry Conner say that queens fly farther away from their home than drones do to find mates. Maybe it could be found in one of his books about queen rearing.
    There is a very useful short thread on this:
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...-virgin-queens

    It seems likely the more settled the weather the more adventurous queens are. But it looks likely there are big gaps in knowledge.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 07-30-2013 at 10:21 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  4. #364
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    >a figure that she must know isn't true of many non-treatment beekeepers - like yourself.

    She never indicates that, and I would assume she does not believe it or she would be looking into the "why".
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  5. #365
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Roscommon Mi USA
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    I don't have any bee keepers or honey bees that I know of within 20 miles. My queens are going to have some trouble finding a stranger.

  6. #366
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    Jan 2012
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    Liberty, Indiana, USA
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    167

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Sheepdog: you can't be certain of a total lack of bees. I was unsure that there were bees here living in the trees until I started putting up traps and having them filled with swarms of bees. Then I started walking the patchy woods during hot humid evenings listening for buzzing and watching for bees. Crazy thing happened, I found out that there are feral bees living here right amongst the monocrop soy and corn. Living in the woods that are right next to the very fields where neonic coated seeds are planted every year.

    I Think you have bees around there. If you know of a location where bees have been in the last thirty years and there are woods in the vicinity I would put some traps in those places. If you just want to test those spots take some honey there the next time you have an hour or two to spare. Put a small amount of the honey out and see if any bees come to investigate. You might just get a surprise. Good luck.
    Jason Bruns
    LetMBee.com YouTube

  7. #367
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    Sep 2011
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    Reno, NV
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    I have an area in mind that I suspect has very few if any bees. I have wanted to test it though. so I thought I woudl make up feeding posts which would be jars of sugar water attached to posts to see if any bees in the area are attracted to it. If that fails I know I have an area with 0 bees in it. but it would require feeding the bees 100% of the time to keep them there. but it would be a mating pure area for controlling breeding. It looks like this. Keep in mind you are looking well over 20 miles to that mountain.
    Black_Rock_Desert_Nevada.jpg

    The above is North of where I am at. this is what is south of us.
    Death-Valley-4.jpg
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  8. #368
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >a figure that she must know isn't true of many non-treatment beekeepers - like yourself.

    She never indicates that, and I would assume she does not believe it or she would be looking into the "why".
    Michael, this is something I have great difficulty in understanding. There seems to be remarkably little scientific rigor among bee "scientists."

    A scientist working in particle physics who found a single particle acting in a way that contradicted his theory regarding that type of particle would immediately understand that his theory was incorrect or at the least, incomplete. But we have apparently reputable people in the field of bee husbandry who stand up and state that bees cannot be kept successfully without treatment.

    I just read an irritating article in a bee magazine that attempted to debunk the idea of "natural" beekeeping. It began by saying that keeping bees in a box is unnatural. What? If you put a box of the right size out in a field and a swarm comes along and moves in, how is that different in any significant way from bees in a hollow tree? The only difference is that we provide movable frames for the combs. I can't see how that makes a whole lot of difference to the bees. The piece goes on to say in big scare letters, "If someone tells you not to feed, walk away!" Then the author relates that the colonies at the research station ran out of stores in February, and that they had to feed 800 to 1000 pounds of sugar a week to keep the colonies alive. There seemed to be no awareness there that perhaps they had taken too much honey in the previous season.

    Even here on BeeSource you see all sorts of folks proclaiming that not treating is some sort of animal abuse that will inevitably end in death and despair. Most of these folks can be forgiven for believing something not borne out by reality, because they are not scientists. But I can't understand how scientists can simply ignore the existence of beekeepers like you and a number of others who have figured out how to keep bees successfully without treatment.

    How is that "scientific?

    Do they think you're lying? Do they think you're just lucky?

    Luck is not a terribly useful concept in science.

  9. #369
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    It's pretty understandable they ignore smaller treatment free beekeepers, because their work generally is not documented with rigorous scientific method. In addition the accepted wisdom is they will take quite a bit of losses. From a scientists point of view they would consider it normal that a small beekeeper could have a year with minimal losses, or even several years. To them, that does not mean the country's problems are solved.

    It would be harder though to ignore a larger TF beekeeper such as say, Beeweaver.

    They must surely know these people exist, I think where they are coming from is that the results are not being replicated across the country.

    Before I get the hate mail, remember I didn't say they are right, I said it's understandable!
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 08-01-2013 at 08:22 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #370
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Ray, I think Bee Scientists can't bring themselves to allow bees to die in order to find ones that can survive w/out treatments. Bee Scientists work for the Commercial Beekeeping Complex tm (the CBC), not necassarily the whole Beekeeping Community. Follow the funding.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  11. #371
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    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    > But I can't understand how scientists can simply ignore the existence of beekeepers like you and a number of others who have figured out how to keep bees successfully without treatment.

    I can't understand it either. It seems to me a good starting point would be for one of them to study the successful treatment free beekeepers and their bees and figure out what is happening.

    >Do they think you're lying? Do they think you're just lucky?

    I've always wondered the same. If it's only one or two you can either assume they were lucky (climate, location, not other colonies around?) or you can assume they are lying. But as more and more people are succeeding, how to you maintain that view?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  12. #372
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    Aug 2005
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    Washington County, Maine
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    I have not the the article rhaldridge speaks of but I wanted to make some comments about the BeeWeaver bees as I have some. Consistency. It isn't there yet. I have some BeeWeaver queens that head monster colonies and others that limp along. The queens purchased from them are too expensive for me to pinch a so so queen and order another one. Besides I have no way of telling that I'll be getting a really good one. I imagine commercial beekeepers who have ordered from BeeWeaver in the past draw similar conclusions. I like the path they are on but not all the bees they ship are ready for prime time. On the positive side, they like every commercial operator I know, are working to improve.

  13. #373
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Dewey View Post
    I have not the the article rhaldridge speaks of but I wanted to make some comments about the BeeWeaver bees as I have some. Consistency. It isn't there yet. I have some BeeWeaver queens that head monster colonies and others that limp along. .
    Andrew, have you made increase from your good BeeWeaver queens? If so, how do the daughters do in your climate?

  14. #374
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Ray, I think Bee Scientists can't bring themselves to allow bees to die in order to find ones that can survive w/out treatments. Bee Scientists work for the Commercial Beekeeping Complex tm (the CBC), not necassarily the whole Beekeeping Community. Follow the funding.
    Mark, I must be getting too cynical in my old age. You're right, of course. In my more untrusting moments I wonder if the funding that comes from folks who want to sell treatment is only being used to demonstrate the necessity of more treatment. I guess that makes financial sense, in the short term.

  15. #375
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    I didn't mean that anything was underhanded. Just that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. There wasn't even a name for what is now called CCD until a well known and well connected beekeeper went looking for Federal Government help, along w/ friends and relatives.

    I imaginbe the same is true w/ Research in general not just bee research.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  16. #376
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Enfield, Ct.
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Mr. Parker, I went to your website and did find the information. I read all the places you have available and some of your blog, man you sure can write a lot, hope you are better at typing than I am. I have a couple more questions, and one of em is a doozy, I mean crazy stupid, so don't laugh, aw hell go ahead.... 1st, would wooden frames with 4.9 cell size with plastic foundation work as well as PF100? I'm going to start building my own woodenware, as I fancy myself (sic) a woodworker and have tablesaw and most tools needed, how much emphasis do you put on 11/4 centers spacing and small cell at the same time? Now for chuckle time, you said at your site something about logs, or in general round living quarters in nature, WHAT IF... I build an oblong or round wooden (like a cask) hive bodies, with removable frames to match (to be legal also), and make it 3-4 high. In your opinion would it make any difference at all, outside the cool factor. BTW in your pics I saw walmart sugar bags, it is beet sugar, GMO's so I'm told, if it don't say pure cane it's beet. Just sayin'

    Walt

    Barry, thanks!
    I'm not inviting a discussion on GMO's or cane vs beet.
    Last edited by Walter Lawler; 08-01-2013 at 03:24 PM. Reason: spelling

  17. #377
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    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    >would wooden frames with 4.9 cell size with plastic foundation work as well as PF100?

    If they made 4.9mm plastic or if you cut it out of the PF100 series frames. There is a thread on here of people who are doing that. I'm far too lazy for that...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  18. #378
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Roscommon Mi USA
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    37

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by LetMBee View Post
    Sheepdog: you can't be certain of a total lack of bees. I was unsure that there were bees here living in the trees until I started putting up traps and having them filled with swarms of bees. Then I started walking the patchy woods during hot humid evenings listening for buzzing and watching for bees. Crazy thing happened, I found out that there are feral bees living here right amongst the monocrop soy and corn. Living in the woods that are right next to the very fields where neonic coated seeds are planted every year.

    I Think you have bees around there. If you know of a location where bees have been in the last thirty years and there are woods in the vicinity I would put some traps in those places. If you just want to test those spots take some honey there the next time you have an hour or two to spare. Put a small amount of the honey out and see if any bees come to investigate. You might just get a surprise. Good luck.
    Maybe. I'm a gardener and have long been concerned about the lack of bees. I am also a walker and I walked around my neighborhood (within a couple miles of my house) looking for honey bees. I did this for three years and found no bees. I'm assuming(maybe wrongly) all the bees I see around now are mine. I did have a couple hives swarm so you could be right and they made it out in the wild. It would be really cool if there are wild bees around me. I would like to catch some feral bees for starting more treatment free hives from survivor local bees.

  19. #379
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Nelson, South Island, New Zealand
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    527

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    frazzledfozzle, have the recent exchanges altered your thinking at all on the issue of the effects of (different sorts of) splitting?

    Mike?
    Hi Mike no it hasn't changed my mind at all. I believe that your practice of splitting so heavily is what will keep your mite numbers down as this has been recommended to beekeepers as a way of keeping mite numbers in control and has nothing to do with genetics or tolerance.

    I also believe that Solomans practice of taking all the brood from his medium strength hives to strengthen up nucs will also remove 90 % of the mites from that hive which will obviously increase the longevity of the donar hive.

    The only hives/bees I see in this thread that can be truely described as treatment free/mite tolerant are Solomans hives that are honey producers and aren't split so basically stay the same year after year with only the queen changing.

    Without sounding harsh I dont think you can claim any tolerance or resitance in your stock at this stage.

  20. #380
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    Without sounding harsh I dont think you can claim any tolerance or resitance in your stock at this stage.
    Well, as a thought experiment, consider commercial beekeepers who treat, do a lot of splitting to make up for heavy losses, and still have heavy losses. If splitting is a panacea, why don't they get better survival? What is the major difference between them and treatment free beekeepers?

    I really can't see brood breaks as a form of treatment, because all you're doing with a brood break is simulating swarming, an entirely natural bee-driven survival mechanism.

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