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  1. #281
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Over the last several pages? I guess you'd be referring to put downs such as half cocked, can't talk English, that type of thing.

    I don't think Odfrank is guilty of anything like that.

    For me, I seem to be the butt of some of this but it's only ever from the same old 5%, I have a thick skin, don't care, and continue regardless. Others though as you say, cannot be bothered, I'm friends with several great people who now rarely / never post here.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #282
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    I'd advise: keep studying, and talking, and form a new plan of attack to move over to non-treatment management. If you go at it half-cocked you are likely to fail again.
    Mike (UK)
    Thanks again for the advise. As a starting point to help me form the new plan, what specifically, was wrong or half cocked, with my last plan of attack?

    So I'll know what to change.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  3. #283
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    I just wanted the simplest answer. Does this study show that treating bees reduces losses and what percent? I had 36% losses treatment free. Will treating reduce those losses and how much?
    In the short term, yes, probably. In the long term no. And if you go that way you'll have to keep on treating, because if you don't 90% or so of your colonies will perish.

    I reckon I nailed it.

    Mike
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  4. #284
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Thanks again for the advise. As a starting point to help me form the new plan, what specifically, was wrong or half cocked, with my last plan of attack?

    So I'll know what to change.
    First let me say I didn't call you half cocked. That wouldn't make sense, and if it did it would probably be impolite. I said what I said: please read it carefully.

    I don't know much about your previous plan, less about your circumstances, and without knowing more I can't add to the considerable effort I've already put in to try to guide you in the right sort of direction.

    Have you made any effort to absorb that advice, and do the learning I spoke of, or have you just decided to keep asking other people to do your work for you? It won't work. You have to do it. That 'starting point' has to be in your head, as a result of your own effort to create it.

    Why don't you try to write a critique of your last effort and post it here? Make a well thought-through plan for future action and post that too.

    That way we'll be able to see what you did, what your circumstances are, and, if we think its worthwhile, we'll be in a position to make the effort to help you along a bit more.

    Sorry in advance to all; that's a bit direct I know. But sheesh, as you chaps say. People will get short and likely rude too if you jerk them around. Stop procrastinating and winding people up here and make with the studying.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  5. #285
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    I don't know much about your previous plan, less about your circumstances, and without knowing more I can't add to the considerable effort I've already put in to try to guide you in the right sort of direction.
    Oh I see. From what you'd been saying I thought you must have known a bit about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Have you made any effort to absorb that advice, and do the learning I spoke of, or have you just decided to keep asking other people to do your work for you? It won't work. You have to do it. That 'starting point' has to be in your head, as a result of your own effort to create it.
    Isn't this being rather pompous, considering you have admitted to knowing little of my plan, the work I have done, or anything?
    However just so you know, I consider all advise given. I do give it more weight if I know the person dispensing it has been successful with it.. Re the learning you suggest I do, yes already done and am still doing, those things you suggested.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Why don't you try to write a critique of your last effort and post it here? Make a well thought-through plan for future action and post that too.
    "Why don't I try to write a critique?" Your whole post and previous posts, just ooze condescension and superiority.
    However, my last "effort" is all here on Beesource. It took a lot of thought, study, work, money, and a large part of my life. Future plan for treatment free? Don't have one. Other than breeding from the most resistant.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    That way we'll be able to see what you did, what your circumstances are, and, if we think its worthwhile, we'll be in a position to make the effort to help you along a bit more.

    Sorry in advance to all; that's a bit direct I know. But sheesh, as you chaps say. People will get short and likely rude too if you jerk them around. Stop procrastinating and winding people up here and make with the studying.
    Can I be direct? I asked for advise about bees. But your post is just a bunch of personal, and rather disparaging comments about me. "Stop procrastinating", blah blah.
    Then I find you know nothing about me and have based all your advise on assumptions.

    When I asked how I could change my plan, I was seeking advise on bees. IE, as I assumed from your tone you must know something about what I have done, you could suggest where I have gone wrong and how it could be improved. For the future, I am interested in substance, not dogma.

    There is nothing in your post that is a change I could make. Writing posts of personal insults disguised as "advise", and nothing at all about bees, is rather transparent.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-25-2013 at 03:02 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #286
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Oh I see. From what you'd been saying I thought you must have known a bit about it.
    I offered general, not specific, information. It doesn't who or where you are, the principles apply. Learn as much as you can about them, and how to apply them to bees, and that will help you in your aims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Isn't this being rather pompous, considering you have admitted to knowing little of my plan, the work I have done, or anything?
    No. General knowledge needs no background information. It applies universally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    However just so you know, I consider all advise given. I do give it more weight if I know the person dispensing it has been successful with it.. Re the learning you suggest I do, yes already done and am still doing, those things you suggested.
    Great, keep at it. If you can find a moment summarise your understanding of the principles of breeding, and how they mimic natural selection for the fittest strains, and how to apply that understanding to beekeeping, I'll critique it for you.

    (I'm not suggesting that in order to try to trip you up, I'm suggesting it because making the effort to produce a short essay along those lines will help you gain clarity about the things that matter, and will help me and others spot any shortcomings in your understanding. And doing that will help us gain more clarity about our own understanding)

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    "Why don't I try to write a critique?"
    Ok, bad phrasing. But still a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    However, my last "effort" is all here on Beesource. It took a lot of thought, study, work, money, and a large part of my life.
    Do you want me to trawl all over Beesource to try to assemble it, in order to glean an understanding of what your circumstances are? That's my only alternative to your presenting it to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Future plan for treatment free? Don't have one. Other than breeding from the most resistant.
    That sounds like a good start. How will you go about it? What will be different to the last time you did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Can I be direct? I asked for advise about bees. But your post is just a bunch of personal, and rather disparaging comments about me. "Stop procrastinating", blah blah.
    You are reading a lot of that in, but yes, I'm impatient with people who repeatedly seek the same advice. Re-read it and follow it. Then maybe you won't feel the need to ask again. And try apologising when its been pointed out that you've falsely accused somebody of insulting or disparaging you. Before you asked for their advice. Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Then I find you know nothing about me and have based all your advise on assumptions.
    I haven't assumed anything. I've operated with universal generalisations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    When I asked how I could change my plan, I was seeking advise on bees. IE, as I assumed from your tone you must know something about what I have done, you could suggest where I have gone wrong and how it could be improved.
    Assumptions, eh? Why don't we start over. If you supply a summary of your personal circumstances and your previous effort, I'll see if I can point to ways of doing things that might work better for you next time around. And I'll explain why I think that what I suggest might be helpful. Others may offer different ideas, and different reasoning, and we'll all learn something in the process of sorting out what we think will help you most.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 07-25-2013 at 03:46 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
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  7. #287
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Do you want me to trawl all over Beesource to try to assemble it, in order to glean an understanding of what your circumstances are?
    No

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    I've operated with universal generalisations.
    There's the problem. I work with specifics.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    So you assumed, and you assumed wrong. I don't know anything about you.
    But, you had so much to say / imply about me.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    If you supply a summary of your personal circumstances and your previous effort, I'll see if I can point to ways of doing things that might work better for you
    Straight up, based on input to date, it would be a waste of my time.

    But having said all that, thanks for in your last post dropping most of the know it all arrogant manner. Even if I did have to put the spotlight on it.

    I made a well researched and thorough attempt at treatment free beekeeping. It was a failure. But my long term goal is still treatment free beekeeping, or if I cannot achieve that, less treatment beekeeping. Which is why I hang around this forum. I'll question things yes. And opinionated people can struggle with that.

    Anyhow, all the best. We'll have to discuss bees sometime.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #288
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Originally Posted by odfrank View Post

    I just wanted the simplest answer. Does this study show that treating bees reduces losses and what percent? I had 36% losses treatment free. Will treating reduce those losses and how much?
    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    In the short term, yes, probably. In the long term no.
    Hi Mike, can you back up that statement with proof? Are you referring to mites developing resistance to certain treatments or claiming that in the long term no kind of treatment (ex: oxalic) will reduce losses? I'm just not seeing where you're getting the information to back up your claim that treatment doesn't reduce losses in more than the short term.

    Saying that you've got to carry on treating or you'll loose X% isn't relevant either, as many are happy to continue treatment, but if you do stop treatment then you're immediately treatment free; so your losses are the initial results of going treatment free!

    I'm quite open minded about the whole thing as you (Mike) know, just curious about where you're getting your long term evidence to back up this claim.

  9. #289
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Do you want me to trawl all over Beesource to try to assemble it, in order to glean an understanding of what your circumstances are? That's my only alternative to your presenting it to me.
    Mike -

    Oldtimer isn't exactly new around here and he has been quite open about what he's done and what his results have been. You don't have to look very far to find this information. Start right here in TF and do a User Name search for posts. Let's try to encourage dialog in this thread so we can all learn a thing or two from one who is actually doing the work.
    Regards, Barry

  10. #290
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    It is my understanding there are no "real" studies done on percentages, Michael Bush's website is one but rally does not have how much losses only how to start treatment free. I don't know about your neck of the woods (although I saw on here that there are very few really trying to go treatment free), but here in my local area the mantra is feed feed feed, treat spring and fall regardless... I know nothing so I am at an advantage IE no bad habits to correct, so I hope to learn natural ways. Gentlemen put away your swords and HELP us learn, bickering solves nothing. As I see it there are no right and wrong or tried and true methods YET. This is all about not making the same mistake as the more experienced have made already. We being neophytes (myself) need information without all the drama. This thread was started By Solomon Parker for people like me and I DO appreciate it, if you are that much more experienced than he, by all means open your own thread and I will read it as well. Now I might well be shunned or banned, but I feel better, so gentlemen start your brains and not your mouths.

    Regards Walt

    Sorry Barry, you came in just as I did.

  11. #291
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    I just wanted the simplest answer. Does this study show that treating bees reduces losses and what percent? I had 36% losses treatment free. Will treating reduce those losses and how much?

    Mr. Frank, I think the answer is that with your experience you should be able to duplicate the best results of other beekeepers who treat in your local area.


    Don

  12. #292
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by heaflaw View Post
    This study shows that beekeepers who treat and beekeepers who do not treat had about the same amount of losses: around 34%, which is about what you had. Did I answer your question well enough?
    Thank you, finally a simple answer for a simple mind. Any other studies that might contradict this one? How many of Kieth Jarrett's bees die? Or Roland, Or Jim Lyon?

  13. #293
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    > How many of Kieth Jarrett's bees die? Or Roland, Or Jim Lyon?

    You may be interested in this thread, with numbers from both Keith and Jim:

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ses#post885886
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  14. #294
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    > How many of Kieth Jarrett's bees die? Or Roland, Or Jim Lyon?

    You may be interested in this thread, with numbers from both Keith and Jim:

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ses#post885886
    Couldnt have said it better myself.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  15. #295
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Thank you, finally a simple answer for a simple mind. Any other studies that might contradict this one? How many of Kieth Jarrett's bees die? Or Roland, Or Jim Lyon?
    By the way, I've been learning from your posts on Beesource for a long time, you definitely do not have a "simple" mind.

  16. #296
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolande View Post
    Hi Mike, can you back up that statement with proof? Are you referring to mites developing resistance to certain treatments or claiming that in the long term no kind of treatment (ex: oxalic) will reduce losses?
    I'm just not seeing where you're getting the information to back up your claim that treatment doesn't reduce losses in more than the short term.
    No, I was just following the logic of the statistic. Long term expect losses of 35 or so percent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolande View Post
    Saying that you've got to carry on treating or you'll loose X% isn't relevant either, as many are happy to continue treatment, but if you do stop treatment then you're immediately treatment free; so your losses are the initial results of going treatment free!
    Hmm. I think it needs untangling a bit. Maybe I didn't nail it.

    Mike
    Last edited by mike bispham; 07-25-2013 at 03:32 PM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
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  17. #297
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Mike -

    Oldtimer isn't exactly new around here and he has been quite open about what he's done and what his results have been. You don't have to look very far to find this information. Start right here in TF and do a User Name search for posts. Let's try to encourage dialog in this thread so we can all learn a thing or two from one who is actually doing the work.
    That's a whole lot of study Barry that I don't have time or energy to do. And from where I sit I have no idea how long it would take, or how much figuring I'd have to do. If someone wants to give me a run down I might offer more, but that's it.

    I think its both reasonable and sensible that if you have a question you supply the information that is required to address it. If it's that easy Oldtimer can do it (if he wants to) or if anyone else want to hear my view, they can do it.

    Quite apart from the etiquette, assembling the information in a way that allows a fresh pair of eyes to look at it constructively is a good exercise for the questioner. He has to put himself in my place, and in doing that he may look afresh at his problem set, and find new creative directions.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 07-25-2013 at 03:08 PM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  18. #298
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Hi Walt. This it the big problem: you are plain wrong in holding this understanding, and more importantly, you should know that by now.
    This is an example of how not to dialog with another member. Stop using the "you" word. Use "I" statements and you'll stay out of trouble.
    Regards, Barry

  19. #299
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Mike, most of us are pretty familiar with Oldtimer's beekeeping background.

    What's your beekeeping history and how many hives do you have?


    Don

  20. #300
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    EDIT - Started writing this and posted it before I saw the most recent posts, please edit / delete if no longer appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    That's a whole lot of study Barry that I don't have time or energy to do. And from where I sit I have no idea how long it would take, or how much figuring I'd have to do.....

    I think its both reasonable and sensible that if you have a question you supply the information that is required to address it. If it's that easy Oldtimer can do it
    Mike as previously stated I do not even want you to trawl through my stuff, please do not bother. I already know the type of thing you will tell me to do, already pretty much knew those mantras by heart years ago.

    But don't claim I asked a question, and then expected you to research on me to get an answer. I would not do that.

    What really happened is you talked about me first. As in, what I should be doing etc, and in rather derogatory terms. As you had taken it upon yourself to comment on me without enough knowledge, I questioned you on it, which I believe is fair enough. I wanted to see if there was substance, or just dogma.

    It then turned into an argument, as you made even more claims and implications about me on a personal level, plus what I should do, why I had failed, etc, and became even more derogatory, while still knowing nothing. It was the subtle put downs, not so subtle put downs, arrogance and know it all ism, that I found most objectionable.

    As you think your approach has been a good one, it would be more of the same if I wrote your critique for you, and as previously stated, me doing this for you would be a waste of my time.

    My advise would be, know what you are talking about before saying it, and secondly, drop the theories about what you logically "think should" happen. Start learning what really happens. Sometimes they'll be the same, but I can guarantee you that sometimes they won't.

    I bear you no ill will, and in fact admire your keenness. But once you get started on talking, it's all just dogma, and I can even pretty much tell what you will say before you even have said it. The only other thing would be realise you are not superior to everybody else, nobody is. I have considerable experience with bees but none the less, I have learned things on this forum from rank newbies and have no problem admitting to that.

    One of my own many faults is I can be rather opinionated, and I know that. It can rub other opinionated people up the wrong way. But I have been a full time beekeeper and a rather successful one. I worked with bees all day, every day, for years. So at least when I offer an opinion on bees there is something to back it.

    Some of my other opinions may well be worthless LOL

    Peace!
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

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