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  1. #261
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    San Mateo, CA
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    4,825

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by D Semple View Post
    Did anybody ever answer Odfrank?
    Not really, and I appreciate your concern. You are certainly more considerate than some people on this thread.

    "I find it not worth my time to tailor my answers to the demands of other people. If you don't like the answer you get, ask another question, don't claim nobody answered the first one."

    Getting ones Master degree evidentially does not teach you compassion or politeness.

  2. #262
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
    Posts
    2,767

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    I captured a swarm last week (based on the size of the swarm cluster it is a prime swarm - I'll be checking for eggs later today) and gave it two foundationless frames to draw in addition to eight older drawn combs. Is it too late in the season to expect even a swarm to do much with foundationless frames? Kelley was having their free shipping and I picked up 20 foundationless frames. I finished assembling them this morning, but figure most will get saved for next spring. i have a few nucs that will be getting their 2nd box shortly and I might see what they do with foundationless. They have been comb drawing machines in the past but as we are border line into August I generally try to give them drawn comb at this time of year. Thoughts? I know this is more of a general question than a specifically treatment free question, but the swarm hasn't been treated for anything by me.

    Update from this afternoon: grumpy, no eggs, no drawing activity on foundationless frames, hive has "the roar" Though I did see what looked like workers cleaning brood cells.
    Last edited by Andrew Dewey; 07-24-2013 at 01:41 PM.
    Master Beekeeper (EAS) and Master Gardener (U Maine CE) www.beeberrywoods.com

  3. #263
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,071

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Getting ones Master degree evidentially does not teach you compassion or politeness.
    If you don't want to "Discussing and formulating honeybee management methods that cooperate as much as possible with natural bee biology without resorting to the use of chemicals and drugs." then don't come in.

    This is a thread for experienced treatment-free beekeepers (me) to answer questions posed by beekeepers who are or want to be treatment-free. If that's not what you're here for, then go elsewhere.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  4. #264
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,849

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    I thought Odfrank was treatment free? Looses most of them every year, but he's treatment free.

    He was simply asking a question about the survey.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #265
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Enfield, Ct.
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    I have read this thread start to finish. A couple of times someone kicked the can and stirred up them hornets but even to me that was helpful not pleasant but helpful... I have just started out with this endeavor my goals are simple, to populate this area which seems not to have a lot of bees at all, to be treatment free, and to get a little honey for myself and family, friends and the like. I do not think I'll make a lot of money and so far it has been fairly costly. I started with 3 pkgs (yeah I know but nucs were not available) one absconded and went to the other 2 hives and never found the queen. Those 2 hives are going gangbusters so I got a carni queen locally and made a split, took brood and honey from those 2 and put in the queen, so far so good. My questions, Mr. Parker are, By starting fresh and not treating, do you think I have a better chance of keeping it that way (post 191) and how big is BIG? I can not afford to go too big financially, even building my wooden ware. There don't seem to be feral bees here as none were on my fruit trees this spring ( last year there were quite a lot), so swarm catching is pretty much out. Also (post 151) using / not using SBB. People in the club advocate it year round, in your opinion are they not necessary?

    Thanks Walt

  6. #266
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,071

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by ddoctor View Post
    By starting fresh and not treating, do you think I have a better chance of keeping it that way (post 191) and how big is BIG?
    I think you have a better chance, however, that is predicated upon a great number of variables. With existing hives you have some infrastructure to work with, but you also have contaminated comb. With new hives, you can start fresh, but you won't have quite the fall back that other hives give you. So, I think so, but it's hard to say for certain. It has gone both ways many times, and unfortunately, for those with whom it failed, they often get quite hostile despite extenuating circumstances. I do not recommend foundationless for the beginner, I do recommend small cell for everybody.


    Quote Originally Posted by ddoctor View Post
    I can not afford to go too big financially, even building my wooden ware.
    But aren't you a doctor? I understand. That's the reason why I did what I did. I purchased 40 deeps (at some expense even then) and then bought 20 packages (some expense though much more now). Knowing I didn't have enough boxes for 20 hives, I didn't do any increase and instead stacked the boxes from dead hives on living ones until I had 6 hives with 3-5 boxes each and some boxes left over. I also bought some used ones a little cheaper. There are many options, and creativity is often rewarded.


    Quote Originally Posted by ddoctor View Post
    There don't seem to be feral bees here as none were on my fruit trees this spring ( last year there were quite a lot), so swarm catching is pretty much out.
    You never know how many fish are in the pond until you toss a hook and a worm in. The worst swarm catching year I ever had was when I got 1 swarm from 11 traps. You really never know, and it's often worth the effort. Again, things are different in different places, so I can't make any guarantees.


    Quote Originally Posted by ddoctor View Post
    Also (post 151) using / not using SBB. People in the club advocate it year round, in your opinion are they not necessary?
    Not only do I not believe they are necessary, I don't believe they are helpful, and I don't believe they should be necessary, so I don't use them and haven't for many years. I do keep a couple around for when I am harvesting honey or moving hives for ventilation and keeping robbers out.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  7. #267
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Take 5 numbers that I have picked at random with the intend to demonstrate average and mean.

    1, 75,73,72 and 2

    The average is adding all 5 numbers and then dividing by 5. this gives us 44.6 as the average.
    It is easy to see that the majority of the numbers fall well above the average. The mean would be where the majority fall and in this case it is 73.3. this is the mean.

    .
    This is incorrect:

    http://www.purplemath.com/modules/meanmode.htm

  8. #268
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by D Semple View Post
    Did anybody ever answer Odfrank?
    I tried. I posted the link to the study pdf. I explained that non-treatment was described as no non-bee generated inputs, and treatment as willing to use anything (though that category is really much larger, because "prefer natural" is also "treatment if necessary.") I explained what a mean was and what the upper and lower CIs were. I nattered on about what I thought the study showed, and what it didn't. odfrank didn't respond to any of these posts, so maybe he didn't see them.

    Then I got derailed by someone's personal animosity, for which I apologize, again. Maybe I'll learn my lesson this time.

  9. #269
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Enfield, Ct.
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Thank you. I should say, so far anyhow, no mites and no beetles. I think that is more luck than good planning on my part. I'm building a few nuc's to have so I can add to my hives and grow drawn comb. I've gone with 8 frame med's just to keep inventory alike and can swap to and from hives and even nuc's are med just for that reason, I also heard/read somewhere that smaller 8 frames get less beetle problems and possibly less disease problems because of less area for the bees to monitor. Have you any Idea if there is any merit to that? That is all supposing you have a strong populated hive. I'm not nieve enough to think I won't have losses or problems, but hope to have enough stock to overcome it. I don't think just because it's a fad right now to keep bees that if it does happen I'll just throw in the towel, I'll read your blog and all the other info spots to try to educate myself. Thanks for this thread and answering all us aspiring beekeepers questions.

    Walt

    Not a doctor in the true sense, a dieseldoctor, it's been my "handle" for a lot of years, but certainly not unique lol.
    Last edited by Walter Lawler; 07-24-2013 at 10:03 AM. Reason: Addendum

  10. #270
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    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
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    5,071

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by ddoctor View Post
    I also heard/read somewhere that smaller 8 frames get less beetle problems and possibly less disease problems because of less area for the bees to monitor. Have you any Idea if there is any merit to that?
    I can't confirm that Walt. I don't like 8-frames because for the size hive, they are too tall. In fact, I built some 14 frame hives that are even shorter. We'll see how they work. My only 8-frame died out just recently after being unable to replace a swarmed queen.


    Quote Originally Posted by ddoctor View Post
    Not a doctor in the true sense, a dieseldoctor, it's been my "handle" for a lot of years, but certainly not unique lol.
    I did consider become a diesel mechanic for a while, but decided to go for commercial beekeeping. That didn't end up being what I wanted to do so I fell back on engineering. Now I'm a Civil Engineer, working on water and waste water plants.
    Last edited by Solomon Parker; 07-24-2013 at 11:12 AM.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  11. #271
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    2,358

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I thought Odfrank was treatment free? Looses most of them every year, but he's treatment free. He was simply asking a question about the survey.
    Odfrank has been keeping bees for over 40 years and never any treatment. He captures more colonies every year than most hobbyist beekeepers have in their apiary so I don't get the harsh treatment either.
    President, San Francisco Beekeepers Association
    www.habitatforhoneybees.org

  12. #272
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Enfield, Ct.
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    I can't confirm that Walt. I don't like 8-frames because for the size hive, they are too tall. In fact, I built some 14 frame hives that are even shorter. We'll see how they work. My only 8-frame died out just recently after being unable to replace a swarmed queen.


    I did consider become a diesel mechanic for a while, but decided to go for commercial beekeeping. That didn't end up being what I wanted to do so I fell back on engineering. Now I'm a Civil Engineer, working on water and waste water plants.
    Mechanic isn't what it used to be, just fell in to it naturally, mom wanted a CPA lol. Now if you could do a "treatment free" potable water plant you would be a ca-zillionaire. The height IS going to be an Issue. For whatever reason I like them and the bees... they don't seem to mind.

  13. #273
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,071

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Could be done, a slow sand filter can do it, reverse osmosis, nanofiltration, the problem lies in the disinfection residual, otherwise more goop grows in the lines. I say more because some already grows there anyway. Goop is actually okay, it's the pathogenic goop you want to watch out for. As Michael said, it would be good for the species if humans were treatment free purely from a natural selection standpoint, but we put value on human life. Since I am a human, I'm okay with that.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  14. #274
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,071

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Actually there's not as much money in water treatment as you might think. We're spending the public's money. Don't spend enough and they unelect you. Spend too much and they unelect you. Water quits coming out the tap or starts coming out the toilet and they unelect you. We work for the guys trying to keep from getting unelected.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  15. #275
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Enfield, Ct.
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    What a cycle... I know a little about public works, but not in the same respect you do, I worked for the county in Fl as a tech in the bus shop I actually worked for the school board and if they don't have money your contract does not get renewed. As $ goes that does not pay very well. Politics sheesh! Maybe we should pattern our society after bees (insects in general), if you don't work you get the boot to the curb and only one monarch. I would hate to be a male though.

    Walt

  16. #276
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,071

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Don't get me started on anthropomorphism of bees. You've been warned!
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  17. #277
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    4,825

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    I just wanted the simplest answer. Does this study show that treating bees reduces losses and what percent? I had 36% losses treatment free. Will treating reduce those losses and how much?

  18. #278
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lincolnton, NC
    Posts
    1,106

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    I just wanted the simplest answer. Does this study show that treating bees reduces losses and what percent? I had 36% losses treatment free. Will treating reduce those losses and how much?
    This study shows that beekeepers who treat and beekeepers who do not treat had about the same amount of losses: around 34%, which is about what you had.

    Did I answer your question well enough?

  19. #279
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,849

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    No wonder Odfrank doesn't post here much.

    Strange that some members of a treatment free forum, decide only certain types of treatment free beekeepers are welcome. During the 2 years I was running treatment free hives, 95% of members here were very helpful and treated me well, but for the other rather vocal 5% I did not fit their mold, and so was met with put downs and outright hostility, still continuing. Like Odfrank.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #280
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lincolnton, NC
    Posts
    1,106

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    The last several pages of this thread has had some great posts by very intelligent and experienced beekeepers. I am enjoying it and learning from it. I hope the discussion continues.

    However, I do have a problem with when comments come across as personal attacks or talking down to other posters. There are other treatment free beekeepers whose contributions would be welcomed and whom we could all learn from but who will not join the discussion for that reason. It is our loss.

    Lawrence Heafner

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