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  1. #321
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    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    >Dee Lusby goes wrong (in public) by emphasising small celling. What she and her followers fail to do is give due credit to their insistence on 'taking your losses' through not treating.

    As far as Dee, as already pointed out, she has said for as long as I have known her (12 years or so) that it is 1/3 genetics, 1/3 natural food and 1/3 cell size.

    I tried taking losses to get mite resistant bees. The all died from Varroa. I tried small cell (with new bees of course since none survived) and lost none to Varroa. You want to believe it's all genetics but that does not explain my success at all.

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm

    Not that I'm against genetics. I certainly think there are many things bees face besides Varroa and we should be raising bees that can survive these things on their own and until you stop treating you can't breed for bees who thrive without treating.

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursim...reatmentupside
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    #2 is your treatment. Good for no residual chemicals, but still a lot of work and breeding for bees that require that kind of care. A reasonable intermediate step, but one that I have never practiced
    If #2 is undertaken systematically, and not accompanied by #3, it might allow the apiary to continue despite having no internal mite defences at all. In this case its effect is indistinguishable from a chemical treatment against varroa. It will tend to weaken existing mite defences over time. And it will anyway tend to mask mite vulnerability, making evaluation of parent material hard.

    Any manipulation that lowers mite levels in the short term will make matters worse in the long term - unless you are able to ameliorate the effect. I emphasise this because its possible that we do such things by accident. For example; I have a lot of young colonies (splits) and little varroa around to infect them.. I must be on guard against the assumption that they are good mite managers, just because they don't have a problem right now. That's why I wait till they've overwintered successfully on their own and built up again before I consider them as parent material.

    I'd be grateful for discussion of this sort of thing. How to be on guard against false readings in the selection process when working an apiary for rapid colony number build up. I guess the best thing is only use the tried and tested queens, using the growing young colonies only to supply brood and flying bees. More fiddly stuff unfortunately.

    #3 has to be requeening with queens with an expectation of better performance in mite management terms. That ought to be well based expectation, not just a hope.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    As far as Dee, as already pointed out, she has said for as long as I have known her (12 years or so) that it is 1/3 genetics, 1/3 natural food and 1/3 cell size.
    You are (both) right - but most of the attention, as Don agrees, has fallen on small cell. And I do recall long periods on the organic beekeepers list when genetics was never mentioned at all. I corresponded with her about this a couple of times, and she said, routine selective husbandry was something she'd always done, and it came so naturally she never gave it a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    I tried taking losses to get mite resistant bees. The all died from Varroa. I tried small cell (with new bees of course since none survived) and lost none to Varroa.
    I do the same (free-celling anyhow) because you told me that a couple of years ago. I do think there is something in it, and it makes good sense anyhow. But its my understanding that others are able to succeed using normal foundation. If this is so, then yours, and Dee's, and the (only) breeders' success can be logically attibuted to genetics only.

    It may well be the case that while genetics is unavoidable, small celling helps, perhaps especially in the early stages. It may be that only some of the several behaviours that bees use to manage mites are available to some populations, and while that is the case, small cells are necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    You want to believe it's all genetics but that does not explain my success at all.
    Am I right in thinking Marla Spivak claims success without any mention of small cell - genetics only? If so, how would you explain that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    Not that I'm against genetics. I certainly think there are many things bees face besides Varroa and we should be raising bees that can survive these things on their own and until you stop treating you can't breed for bees who thrive without treating.
    I couldn't agree more. Solomon has it right - exposure to all aspects of the environment is the healthy way forward, and I reckon plain vigour, productivity and longevity in the face of that are the best guides for selection purposes. Broad-spectrum resistance, I think I've heard it called.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 07-26-2013 at 12:45 PM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
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  4. #324
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    Mr Bush

    I tried taking losses to get mite resistant bees. The all died from Varroa. I tried small cell (with new bees of course since none survived) and lost none to Varroa. You want to believe it's all genetics but that does not explain my success at all.
    Are you certain the genetic lines you got to replace all of the colonies lost to varroa wreren't better suited to varroa? I have noted consistencies in survivabilty of bees caught at specific locations around here. There seem to be great differences in swarm size, coloration, work ethic and overwintering abilities even here in this 50 mile x 50 mile zone where I place my traps. These locations consistently provide bees with similar attributes (swarm size, coloration, work ethic etc.) year after year.

    I don't know what else to attribute this to other than genetics. The entire region is mono cropped soy and corn, so it isn't like some of these bees are coming from easy to live locations. What do you think?

    Thanks
    Jason Bruns
    LetMBee.com YouTube

  5. #325
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    I think there is a number of reasons for some of the disagreement.

    But first, ALL beekeepers would like to be treatment free. Treatment is expensive and time consuming. Pre varroa, no chemicals of any type were used in hives in my country. Then varroa arrived and treatment became the norm. The cost of it put some marginal beekeepers out of business, and for the rest, they now run an average of 30% less hives per man. Nobody wants that, of course.

    There is an issue of definition. This, being a treatment free forum, allows really only one method, the bond method. Because any other method is not treatment free. So for example, the govt. funded breeding programs producing bees with higher varroa resistance are not strictly kosher on this forum cos they treat.

    The conundrum for the likes of me, is that I am not really kosher on this forum. Because although I used the bond method, I lost everything. IE, it didn't work.
    That leaves me one alternative, treat where needed, but breed from the most resistant. But that is not really kosher on this forum.

    When I did the bond method, I used absolute best practise, based on information from all the best known treatment free beekeepers, Solomon included. In fact I exceeded what some of them do. But it didn't work. And for most for whom it did work, they don't know why. IE, they cannot take their bees and practises to another beekeeper and tell them it will work for them. It is not reliably repeatable.

    Perhaps the most repeatable thing in TF beekeeping might be queens from beeweaver. Most reviews are positive. But it struck me as odd that commercial beekeepers are not using them to make big savings, so I asked about this on the commercial forum. The reply was that some have tried them, but they got varroa just like all the other bees. So from that, it could be concluded that environment, as well as genetics, plays a part.

    Even small cell itself, is not truly bond method, because it is helping the bees against varroa by imposing something on them. Natural comb is true bond method.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-26-2013 at 09:06 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post

    There is an issue of definition. This, being a treatment free forum, allows really only one method, the bond method.
    You can call it the bond method, I call it population husbandry by selective propagation. The bond method (and the soft bond method) refer to the means of transitioning from treatment addicted bees to treatment free bees by propagating from those showing the best mite skills. The former probably suits professional breeders, especially if they have no access to feral or bred resistant bees; the latter suits beekeepers whose apiaries are treatment addicted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Because any other method is not treatment free. So for example, the govt. funded breeding programs producing bees with higher varroa resistance are not strictly kosher on this forum cos they treat.
    They are not transitioning methods, or ongoing health-directing operations. They are separate dedicated breeding programs. Learning about them doesn't help with the work of learning how to keep bees without treatments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The conundrum for the likes of me, is that I am not really kosher on this forum. Because although I used the bond method, I lost everything. IE, it didn't work. That leaves me one alternative, treat where needed, but breed from the most resistant. But that is not really kosher on this forum.
    Why not start one where it is? Describe it as working with Marla Spivak's methods or the soft bond method. But if you truly want help, wherever, be prepared to explain your own circumstances fully. If people can't tell what wen't wrong before they'll be hobbled as to telling you how to fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    When I did the bond method, I used absolute best practise, based on information from all the best known treatment free beekeepers, Solomon included. In fact I exceeded what some of them do. But it didn't work.
    So you say. I understand you attempted the soft bond method of transitioning? You seem to want to extrapolate from your own failure that no-one else can succeed, and the 'bond method' is therefore unreliable at best.

    But you are unwilling to offer a short summary of what you did, and your apiary circumstances, that might allow me or anyone else who hasn't followed your explanations to offer suggestions as to what might have gone wrong. We can't check your claim that you did all the right things. We can't critique your methods. You are preventing us helping you. That looks rather odd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    And for most for whom it did work, they don't know why. IE, they cannot take their bees and practises to another beekeeper and tell them it will work for them. It is not reliably repeatable.
    So seek out people for whom it does work, and they _do_ know why it works. Many people don't care why it works - not about the details anyway. And some struggle to follow the more complex detail of what is happening. None of that matters. But if your car is broken, seek a mechanic, not a racing driver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Even small cell itself, is not truly bond method, because it is helping the bees against varroa by imposing something on them. Natural comb is true bond method.
    My advice would be to abandon this 'true religion' attitude to 'the bond method' and familiarise yourself with the principles and mechanisms of nature. And let people help, by telling them what you did.

    Unless that happens I think this conversation is off topic. I value a forum where questions can be asked about how to raise and maintain treatment free bees, whether transitioning from treatment-addicted or starting over, in the knowledge that it is likely to work if done well. I'm not going to participate in conversations that undermine that understanding, and I'll complain if they persist.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  7. #327
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    Mike I don't really think we are on the same page.

    With all due respect, I am not asking for your help, nor have I. Some pages back, uninvited, you commented on me and my methods, implying I was on the wrong path, and that you had something to offer. This came as a surprise as I really didn't think you knew anything about me or my bees. So in essence I asked you to explain yourself. That's all.

    I have not been able to discover what it is that you think you know, that I don't know. The generalities and theories about selective breeding etc that you have offered are already known by most of the members here including myself.

    Although I am normally happy to talk with literally anyone, I am not asking you to engage in a conversation with me. So don't have a problem with that, and as to your continued insistence that I write a bunch of stuff for you, I have already explained that based on input I have seen so far, it would not be worth my time. I would be very happy for you to "help" someone else, rather than me.

    Really, no need to be so deadly serious about it all either. For you, it's just a hobby and it's meant to be fun. Enjoy!
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-27-2013 at 05:15 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post

    4 years ago I bought the piece of land I needed to start working on bees. I made arrangement to locate swarms and cut-outs, and sent 3 into winter in autumn 2011. Two came through, and built up, and I multiplied and added swarms to about 50 last last year. Many were late, many never built - we had one of the wettest summers on record - and I ruthlessly let them die in one of the coldest winters we've seen in a generation, 2012-13. 7 came through, 4 were outstanding. From them, with the help of a handful of swarms, I've raised numbers to 36 - aiming to about double that into winter. There has been no treatment of any sort, and no manipulation against mites.
    MIke you stopped beekeeping when you lost all your colonys due to varroa and took it up again in 2011.

    You sourced your bees from swarms or cutouts but I guess you wouldn't know the origin of the bees whether from managed or feral colonys.

    I don't understand why you think that after 2 years you have the makings of resistant bees?

    My understanding is that splitting a hive into nucs is a great way of reducing mite load in the parent hive as well as the nucs, and is in itself a treatment.

    To split so many nucs off 4 hives that survived one winter I'm not surprised the hives are doing well as the mite load would be substantially reduced.

    To me a true indication of treatment free bees is to have each one of your 36+ hives you have now still alive and well after 3 winters with no splits or nucs made off it.

    Until you have done that I wouldn't say you have succeeded but fingers crossed that you do.

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    And let people help, by telling them what you did.
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...mall-Cell-Hive
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...-Off-the-wagon
    Regards, Barry

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    To me a true indication of treatment free bees is to have each one of your 36+ hives you have now still alive and well after 3 winters with no splits or nucs made off it.
    That sounds like a bit of the old "moving the bar." You can't do that treating, why should treatment-free be expected to do it?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post

    To me a true indication of treatment free bees is to have each one of your 36+ hives you have now still alive and well after 3 winters with no splits or nucs made off it.

    Until you have done that I wouldn't say you have succeeded but fingers crossed that you do.
    W/ that criteria, never in the history of beekeeping have we ever been treatment free. It's funny to me that what treatment free is is still being argued/discussed. It's like arguing about whether the sky is blue or not. It doesn't matter.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  12. #332
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    There's a simple reason for that Mark. Perhaps you can figure out what it is. Why would a group of people with no interest in advancing the concept constantly criticize and even troll a forum devoted to its discussion? Why would they try to subvert the definition of the thing? Why would they try to demonstrate that even the concept's adherents weren't actually doing the thing they claim to be doing? Do they do the same things in the Topbar forum or the Warre forum?

    What treatment-free is is what it is as defined in this forum. The idea that people keep trying to conflate beekeeping with treatment-free beekeeping is absurd. There is a group of people who either can't or won't or have failed to do it in here and they won't leave or leave it alone. Why is that?

    Here are the reasons I've gathered:

    1. I'm lying and should be stopped.
    2. My methods are poisonous to the field of beekeeping and I should be stopped.
    3. I'm setting up newbees for failure and shoudl be stopped.
    4. I'm headed for disaster and going to take a bunch of adherents with me and should be stopped.
    5. What I do doesn't matter and I'm rocking the boat and should be stopped.

    I am confident that this post will add a number 6 and a number 7 to this list. Despite all the naysayers who have been saying nay for years, I've done this for ten years using the harshest of methods in a very difficult area to keep bees profitably, and I'm still doing it and I am more successful every year. I can't see how any of the stuff said against treatment-free beekeeping can be relevant. Somebody keeps bees on foundationless, ends up with very large cells, bees crash, naturally. A retired commercial beekeeper keeps one yard of bees treatment-free, they crash, of course. These things are not surprising. Michael and I and Dee and others have done this for a very long time and we are all available in one venue or another to tell you how to do it successfully. That's what this thread was supposed to be about. I'm still here to answer questions, an actual successful hard bond method beekeeper who sells nucs, honey, and wax.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    That sounds like a bit of the old "moving the bar." You can't do that treating, why should treatment-free be expected to do it?
    Solomon you have made this assumption before I thought I'd been through it with you. What Frazz said would apply to me anyway, and I would imagine to her also or she wouldn't have said it. To be clear, if I took 37 treated hives into winter, I would expect 37 to survive. Failures are rare. Among mite treated bees.

    Perhaps it is you, that thinks I, am lying?

    I guy makes comments about me, I ask him to explain, and then, all this.....

    Thanks for the links Barry, the beginning and the end LOL. Maybe that will help. Not that I want, or asked for, this rather ugly attention.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-27-2013 at 09:57 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #334
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    It appears to me as a beginner, IMO there is NO defined method of treatment free. If someone would like to define it I'll listen if not I'll do what I think is right. To me it means NO chemicals, feeding new hives IS a good idea for a finite time period. Yes you may manipulate cell size and move frames. NOW if ANYONE would care to say what is NOT allowed IE: 1. No blah blah 2.can't...... 3. etc. Otherwise It's ME that is in the wrong forum. Mike you have great ideas and are very intelligent and articulate, it husbandry is a great topic and for sure is part of this, however maybe should have it's own forum thank you. Solomon, thank you for answering my questions, I am new at this stuff and there are way too may arguments to wade through.

    Went to website can read undisturbed by rhetoric. Didn't see it a t first, not that great with computers either.
    Last edited by Walter Lawler; 07-27-2013 at 12:54 PM. Reason: FOUND IT

  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddoctor View Post
    NOW if ANYONE would care to say what is NOT allowed
    Don't need to, already done:

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ue-Forum-Rules
    Regards, Barry

  16. #336
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    If I delete the part of my post that says that splitting a hive is a treatment just as drone trapping would also be considered a treatment and move on the part about splitting because this is where I'm confused about whats going on.

    It's my understanding that by splitting an established hive once twice or howerever many times you do it you are also knocking back the mite numbers in the original hive as well as the splits this is common knowledge and part of an IPM plan that is used worldwide to reduce mite numbers in a colony.

    If those colonys are split built up split again over and over then it stands to reason that your mite numbers will be low.

    If like Mike you come through winter with 7 hives four of which are split like crazy up to 30 odd hives then I'm not surprised they are doing well with low mite numbers because thats what you would expect. It dosn't actually tell me he has any resistance/tolerance in his bees.

    If however a beekeeper brought those 7 hives through winter and didn't treat or split them and they survived another 2 winters ( 2 winter because studies have shown that thats the time frame it takes for a hive to succumb to varroa if left untreated) then I would be the first to put my hand up and say you are onto it.

    Treatmentfree beekeepers do a hang of alot of splitting which is not something you would have routinely done pre varroa unless you were wanting to increase hive numbers.

    It's the one thing that stands out to me that treatment free beekeepers do that conventional beekeepers dont and I think it has a major impact on mite numbers rather than because theres any resistance/tolerance.

    If you want to be taken seriously Mike then I wouldn't be saying anything about how you have been able to magically conjure up resistant bees after 2 years because that really seems fanciful to me and is also a bit of a slap in the face for people who have put alot of money time and effort into trying to develop their own line of resistant/tolerant bees.

    Lastly I want to say that your post aimed at Oldtimer #210 is extremeley condescending as you imply he has no knowledge and that you know about what he was doing with his bees here in NZ when in actual fact you had no clue.

    Oldtimer has been beekeeping for many more years than yourself and has been dealing with varroa for many more years then yourself. He is an extremely valued member of our New Zealand bee community and has always called it as it is.
    One other thing with Oldtimer he will share what he is doing in his Apiaries with whoever is interested and will tell it true whether things are going well or not.

    That said I will leave it alone because I dont want to perpetuate any bashing it just annoyed me to see such a personal and uninformed post.

  17. #337
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    Darn that sure is a lot of reading from start to finish.

  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    If like Mike you come through winter with 7 hives four of which are split like crazy up to 30 odd hives then I'm not surprised they are doing well with low mite numbers because thats what you would expect. It dosn't actually tell me he has any resistance/tolerance in his bees.
    Quite right

    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    It's my understanding that by splitting an established hive once twice or howerever many times you do it you are also knocking back the mite numbers in the original hive as well as the splits this is common knowledge and part of an IPM plan that is used worldwide to reduce mite numbers in a colony. If those colonys are split built up split again over and over then it stands to reason that your mite numbers will be low.
    We need to distinguish between different sorts of 'splits', and the different effects they might have. I try to do them in a way that has the least influence on the parent colony - though in the interest of building hive numbers I've also done them in ways that impact more.

    The preferred method is: from large and thriving hives that have come through at least one winter:

    I take 1 frame of eggs-to-sealed brood and one of stores - open nectar and pollen at least, together with an empty farme containing only starter strip. I put these in a divided 6-frame nuc, and 'charge' them with flying bees from either the same colony or another by shifting the donor hive to the side and letting bees fly in for a while. Then I take them to a different site where I have (at least two and often more) thriving colonies with large drone populations, and park them in a relatively isolated position. Once mated I shift them to a 6-frame nuc and slow-feed syrup to encourage them build comb.

    The effect on the parent hive is limited to the loss of no more than 10% of oncoming brood, and often as little as 5%. I can't see this having much effect on varroa populations, thus giving false readings. If anyone thinks otherwise it can I'll be grateful to hear your reasoning.

    Maybe we should describe this in terms of 'low-impact' splits?

    The other way is making splits from young colonies, and I agree that this is riskier in terms of supplying false readings of mite resistance as I'm taking up to 20% or so of the brood. But that's still not a lot. And I'm not making any assumptions: all my hives are what they are, and we'll know more about them when they've passed through a winter and built up again - or not. That's it. This is a process, and a learning process.

    I've also grafted, and plan to try cut-comb queen raising. Both these would be still better for avoiding false resistance readings, but I've yet to sort out the business of getting nurse bees separated (shaking will get the queen in the wrong place - I don't mark my queens and don't see them very often)

    I've considered trying freeze-brood testing a la Spivak, but haven't got around to it yet. (I reckon pipe-freeze kits for field work - has anyone tried this?)

    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    If however a beekeeper brought those 7 hives through winter and didn't treat or split them and they survived another 2 winters ( 2 winter because studies have shown that thats the time frame it takes for a hive to succumb to varroa if left untreated) then I would be the first to put my hand up and say you are onto it.
    I'd like links to those studies. I don't see how you can make a binary ("is OR isn't") judgement of whether a hive has resistance when resistance is incremental. Depending on how many of the several mite-management behaviours the hive posesses, and in how many patrilines, the hive will do better or worse at managing - its not an on/off situation. The idea is to make the effort to discover the most resistant and propagate their genes in the local breeding pool.

    The idea that two winters should be a benchmark may be desirable, but you'd have to monitor the queen to make sure there's been no break through a succession or swarming. But yes, two winters without any human impact will be better than one.

    In broad terms it is my present judgement that, in a middle sized apiary context, with many other bees in the area... if a swarm establishes, builds, survies a winter, and rebuilds without any sign of mites or dwv there is a very good chance things will go on that way. That's been my experience to date. I see a little dwv in some hives for a few weeks in spring, then it stops - but those hives get marked down as watch-its.

    There are plenty of uncertainties in this game, lots of trying to determine where your best chances lie. I've taken my path - this year maximise numbers while trying to minimise false readings - and others will find holes in it - quite rightly. I'm grateful for the critique. Next year, more grafting so as not to slew assays. I reserve the right to change my mind!

    As you say, I'll be able to speak more authorititively as the years go by - assuming continued success. But my modest success doesn't supply the basis of the arguments I put forward here - though it does show I'm putting my money where my mouth is, and that what I've described has worked for thus far. My arguments are rather founded in the uncontraversial science, supported by widespread and (very) longstanding breeding practice. They are logical exercises in extrapolating from solid premises.

    Those people who distrust logical extrapolation won't trust them. Others will hopefully appreciate the clarity and insight they can provide toward discovering the important factors in a complex topic. Horses for courses as they say hereabouts.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 07-28-2013 at 12:17 PM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  19. #339
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,799

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    One other thing with Oldtimer he will share what he is doing in his Apiaries with whoever is interested and will tell it true whether things are going well or not.
    So will I and lots of other people here. That's just normal civil and earnest behaviour.

    We'll also supply summaries of what we did if people ask, on the basis that that may well help us, and will certainly be of interest to others here and future readers. I'm not making any accusations here (and while I'm tempted, I'm not going to add to his list), but as Solomon says there are plenty of reasons for naysayers to talk up failures. And when people get cagy about their stories, that does, inevitably, create the suspician that all is not what it seems to be.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 07-28-2013 at 04:56 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  20. #340
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Ask Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle
    If however a beekeeper brought those 7 hives through winter and didn't treat or split them and they survived another 2 winters...
    Every winter. I don't split that way.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

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