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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,710

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    > Agree to disagree and go to the opposite corners of the boxing ring! lol

    I think Joes_bees is in a class by himself with post #57. The visuals are scary, but I'm still not sure whether he was proposing the front or back side.



    And I'm not giving up icons until they are pried from my ...
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,606

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    The thing is, in business, when there is a challange, someone is there to take it up. That called adapting.
    If the industry gets to a point of being "broke", someone will fix it, always
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Peace River, AB Canada
    Posts
    456

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    In 1991 in Alberta we had 830 beekeepers with 147,000 colonies and in 2011 we had 798 beekeepers with 274,600 colonies.
    I'll admit that some beekeepers have faced huge losses during those years but overall ,at least here, the industry is growing. This is why I don't believe anything is broke. We just adapt to the new challenges, learn from our mistakes and continue doing the best we can.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    6,606

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    and make money! lol
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,649

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Beeman View Post
    Some of you guys sound like a bunch of bickering old hens.
    Hey, we take our bickering hens seriously around here!
    Regards, Barry

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    brownwood, TX, USA
    Posts
    862

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    About the science in beekeeping: Review of the scientific method:
    1. Ask a question, such as, do SBB work in my area
    2. Do background and research, Research beekeepers observations, google technical papers, read some bee books........
    3. Construct a hypothesis, If I add a SBB to my hives the bees will produce more honey in the hot summer months.
    4. Test the hypothesis, Using similar colonies, add SBB to some and not to others...
    5. Analyze the data, Make a comparison of how the different hives performed, be honest
    6. Communicate your results, Tell you forom members your experiment and conclusions, write a technical paper

    Don't a large portion of our forum members go through process? Sure they don't record all the data as they should, but from what I read on this forum several of you ask a question, draw a hypothesis, test your ideas, and draw some conclusions. As a group, we are not as far from science as some think.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    6,606

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    I wouldn't call what beekeepers do scientific
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,710

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by lazy shooter View Post
    As a group, we are not as far from science as some think.
    IMHO, Lazy shooter's comments apply to even the "older generation" of beekeepers.

    And a review of Acebird's resume shows that he is approximately 59 years old. Old enough to be a great-grandfather, and certainly a member of the "older generation", at least from the perspective of some of our younger members, perhaps like Westernbeekeper, 19 years old, according to some of his posts.

    Full disclosure: My 60th birthday was earlier this summer.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts
    145

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    I'm glad to see this thread got back on track (though at this point I almost wish it would just die ). I'd like to apologize for post 57, I stayed up too late awaiting election results and am now cranky. Thank you Barry for moderating and Rader for providing comic relief.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,932

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Hey, we take our bickering hens seriously around here!
    helps pay da rent eh barry?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,277

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joes_bees View Post
    this fits right in line with what I'm trying to say. Many people grow old and feel that is evidence that their opinion is correct. Being able to retain an opinion for so many years doesn't ALWAYS mean it is right. It can also mean your opinion has never been challenged or you are a very stubborn person.

    However many people grow old despite the bleak picture Acebird paints, and do keep an open mind, do contribute and interact with the world in a way that benefits us all. It's not right to lump those people in with the others.

    Now my view of beekeeping may sound bleak, questioning if it's broken and listing problems, but it's only so that we can prepare to react and quickly as we have changed it. Beekeeping is rooted in a lot of history... a lot. However in the last 50 years we have guided breeding and shaped genetics, exposed hives to pests, viruses and chemicals. Human kind has a heavy hand in the survival of many species on this planet and to think there are people like sqkcrk oblivious to our effect on bees is terrifying.
    I ask questions of this young lad, as well as perspective, and get insults and am called a troll. He suggests that others are closeminded and unable to adapt and that I am "oblivious to our effects on bees" when I have had first hand experience w/ those effects since the arrival of tracheal mites and varroa mites, nosema, shb, Africanized Bees, and all. Be that as it may. If Joe sees no benefit to my point of view, my experiences and knowledge I will agree to leave him alone and ask that he do the same by me.

    Adieu.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  12. #72
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
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    2,775

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I will agree to leave him alone and ask that he do the same by me.
    Just don't leave us, as we value your opinion and experience.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,812

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Beekeeping is not broke(I agree with SQKCRK), but there are two areas that do effect beekeeping that are broke:

    Government Scientists(excluding a certain Gentleman from the U of Neb) are no longer doing there job in an ethical and professional manner. In Jan of 2009, I went to listen to an entomologist from Illinois speak at Fermilab about CCD. I had prearranged to speak with her after the lecture about my successes with CCD. After listening to her I realized she had no clue about what causes CCD, and had not taken the time to discolor her smoker of propolize her hive tool(there where pictures). After the lecture I offered her with a copy of a peer review journal article that would have helped her. She was not interested. It turns out she had a pending grant that it might have jeopardized. In the end, her grant supported the paper I offered her.

    The people that work for us(Govt) , need to go back to proper science, roll up their sleeves, get their hands dirty, and comprhend that maybe th ebeekeepers know more about bees(but not science) than they do, put their egos in a jar, and work for a FUNCTIONAL solution to CCD and other maladies.

    The other "broke" part is the failure of those entrusted to protect our food supply, to stop the influx of "funny honey". Read the numbers of how much tariff money was avoided, then tell me how "there is no money to fund enforcement". Baloney. Somebody just ain't doin' their job, the money is there.

    Crazy Roland

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Kenosha,WI
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    195

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Both sqkcrk (Mark) and Roland are right on the money. Hope to meet each some day and thank them in person for their experienced views.
    Roger

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    St. Paul, MN
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    145

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    I'd like to apologize to sqkcrk and other beekeepers I offended on this board, I was disrespectful to your experience and knowledge in an attempt to assert my own importance in this community and I am far from proving it. I lost a bit of sleep over this thread, not because I was angry, but because I was humbled.

    As he pointed out...
    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    You seem to be taking this personally.
    I was and I'd like to explain why.

    When I was 16, I soaked up all the knowledge I could get and bought my first two hives. Following the instruction of older beekeepers and the books I was reading I treated my hives with Fumidil B, Terramycin, and Apistan. My hives swarmed because I couldn't add supers until the treatments were done. I quickly learned trying to follow all beekeepers' advice wasn't possible since they often contradict. I also decided early on I would never rely on honey production for a living.

    I grew my apiary to 6 hives and had some good honey crops. During college, interest waned since time had to be devoted to a bachelors degree, my hives didn't get the attention they needed.

    I graduated in a crappy economy and had a lot of trouble finding a job. I'm now back on my feet after getting my foot in the door at a great company. This career path is sure to be profitable and soul sucking.

    This last year I went out again and read as much as I could on the current state of beekeeping, watched documentaries, networked with beekeepers and researchers. I decided I'm going to make a career change to honeybee research and growing my own apiary. The opinion of sqkcrk, an experienced beekeeper, telling me things were fine and the crisis is over was heart breaking. Making me second guess a decision I'll be making next spring that many in my life already view as foolish.

    Regardless of how true it is, I have a lot to learn before I'm in any condition to help the beekeeping community.

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    1,544

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    I am sorry, I missed the whole scandal. Couple of points:

    - if everything is good in beekeeping as Mark and others stated, than - why scientists should bother and try to help beekeeping? The way, how "science" work in US - it should be demand for research and money. If bees are OK, than, there is no demand and thus, no money. I have to add that this is "local", US-specific approach. Many European countries (and their taxpayers) think differently. For instance, in Germany, there is country wide program to trace mite-resistant traits and ABH. They use pretty good scientific approach! Joes_bees you should see if you could find a place in Europe. It looks like bee-experts do not need you here, sad!

    - aging - ridiculous discussion. Everybody is aging and there is no offense in it! I am 57 and my brain works at least twice slower than 20 years ago. My 85 mom could not understand my science even she was "trained" for the last 30 years. There are some examples of high scientific productivity in senior ages, but I know only 2-3 true examples. University (UC) has a policy that professor could not keep research Lab after age of 65. S/he could teach. The whole scientific population is aging. Average age when researcher finally got his/her own lab is close to 50 when scientific productivity already declining! We definitely need fresh young brains in the science - and yes, we have them (cheap), they come from China and other countries (Europe?). I was invited to work in US as a specialist of "national interest" - they could not find American on that position... the way, how science is treated on this forum is alarming.

    -beekeeping is a craft in very good sense of this word. It is not a science and thus, all above is not applicable to beekeeping.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  17. #77
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    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    6,606

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    >>- aging - ridiculous discussion. Everybody is aging and there is no offense in it

    seems the criticism was more so against the poster who said rather than what the poster said
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  18. #78
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    >>I'd like to apologize to sqkcrk and other beekeepers I offended on this board, I was disrespectful to your experience and knowledge in an attempt to assert my own importance in this community and I am far from proving it. I lost a bit of sleep over this thread, not because I was angry, but because I was humbled.

    Joes_bees, relax. One topic to the next. Takes two, right? If everyone agreed on these kind of subjects there would be no need for discussion. Differing points of view makes discussion interesting. You have made for an interesting conversation.

    That said, and to the point of your topic, do you feel the same way still, or has your point of view changed? I dont agree with your initial assertion. I wish you would give beekeepers more credit for what we are accomplishing.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    28,277

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    On the off chance I am going against what I said before about not engaging I feel a need to clear something up.

    I have not reviewed all of my Posts in this Thread, but, I don't believe I ever wrote that "everything is good" or that everything is fine or okay. I know better. My point was that things are not as bad as Joe seemed to think and definitely not as bad as they used to be sometime over the last 26 years since Varroa arrived.

    I had no idea that Joe was refering to his personal situation, which I can relate to. It's tough Joe, I know. Living off of bees has not been easy and even though I started 10 years before varroa arrived I was on the front lines in a number of ways when tracheal and varroa first showed up and I have experienced all aspects of that History.

    So Joe, thanks for apologizing. That shows your character in a good light.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  20. #80
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Peace River, AB Canada
    Posts
    456

    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    The question was "Is Beekeeping broke?", to me that implies the people keeping bees and how they are operating. I don't see where the question was whether or not we need researchers and/or scientists.
    Yes there are problems with hive health as there has been in the past and will be in the future. We need the researchers to look into these problems and hopefully find solutions that we can then apply to our bees. I feel that the beekeeping community has been doing that and that is why I say beekeeping isn't broke.
    There are many seminars, field days, conventions and the like being held to promote the latest research in nutrition, IPM, queen rearing etc. These are presented by both local and national beekeeping organizations because they understand the need to keep up with current practices.
    So Joes bees, don't give up on your dreams because we do need researchers who love bees!

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