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Is Beekeeping broke?

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50K views 168 replies 27 participants last post by  snl 
#1 · (Edited)
I constantly hear people argue various beekeeping practices saying how can it be wrong, beekeepers have been doing it for X number of years.

This evokes the sacred law of "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

With the constant battle against Varroa mites, systemic pesticides, aging number of commercial beekeepers, CCD... the list goes on, I would argue that beekeeping is broken.

Even when it comes to a topic such as overwintering, a beekeeper is happy if 50-70% of their hives make it (in my region). There is room for improvement. Technology is allowing us to monitor much more inside a hive, who knows what we can learn. People may argue that science and technology have done a lot to hurt beekeeping, but please don't confuse gained knowledge with how people have chose to use it. (I'm not necessarily advocating wires and batteries in hives, just don't hate on research and ideas.)

The main argument I have with this reasoning is how stagnant it is. I believe we should always be striving to improve, and I hope you all do to. The world around us is constantly changing. Beekeeping experiences new challenges and scientific breakthroughs every year. If you are not adapting your beekeeping practices and staying up to date with the latest research, beekeeping may not have a place in the future.
 
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#45 ·
Human kind has a heavy hand in the survival of many species on this planet and to think there are people like sqkcrk oblivious to our effect on bees is terrifying.
Well if you are not set in your ways or too stubborn that you can't be swayed...
I think the human race might have an effect on the beekeeping industry but I do not believe it has any effect on the extinction of an insect, at least not at our present or near future population. We stand more a chance of killing ourselves off than any insect.

I just got this from my sister:

The following write-up explains so much.

"Ever walk into a room with some purpose in mind, only to completely forget what that purpose was? Turns out, doors themselves are to blame for these strange memory lapses. Psychologists at the University of Notre Dame have discovered that passing through a doorway triggers what's known as an 'event boundary' in the mind, separating one set of thoughts and memories from the next. Your brain files away the thoughts you had in the previous room and prepares a blank slate for the new locale."

It's not aging that causes us to forget; it's the stupid door"!

Whew! Thank goodness for studies :)
 
#46 ·
Well, Ace, I was going to propose that if you modified your original post to eliminate the "older" insult, that I would modify my response to essentially endorse your post.

But you seem to enjoy tossing out gratuitous insults. How would your original post been less true without the "older generation" portion?

You post these kinds of insults on a regular basis, then when I later find them and repost your own quotes in a later thread, you complain that you are being insulted! But they are simply your own words!

Carry on!

:digging:
 
#54 ·
But you seem to enjoy tossing out gratuitous insults.
Says you. I don't post insults. It is a twist You try to spin not just with me. Practically every post you make that is a comment about me has a animated cartoon attached. What do you classify that as?
I have read my comment over as to it's insulting nature and see none of it. It is a fact of life. Maybe the truth hurts.
 
#49 ·
I don't view myself as a fear monger, or doomsday sayer... people that know me think I'm generally happy and optimistic. It appears compared to the sentiment on the beesource forums I am. I guess I always thought the media was blowing things out of proportion, but this discussion is leading me to believe all the beekeepers out there are happy.

Am I suppose to believe those studying beekeeping at the universities are just fanning the flames to get more funding for their research?
 
#51 ·
I guess I always thought the media was blowing things out of proportion, but this discussion is leading me to believe all the beekeepers out there are happy.

Am I suppose to believe those studying beekeeping at the universities are just fanning the flames to get more funding for their research?
People are motivated to do all sorts of things for selfish reasons. Media hype has helped raise public awarness of the plight of beekeepers and gets people to watch the News and buy Newspapers. That's their business.

Trust but verify. Take everything w/ a grain of salt. Question authority. All those things. Yes, Universitys do fan flames to a greater or lesser degree in order to justify getting funding. It's how the game is played. There could also be a problem which could be addressed by research which Universities are best able to find answers to. Some times not.
 
#56 ·
Good and bad are relative terms, often depending on one's point of view. Purpleloostrife is a weed to be eradicated from the pov of NYS DEC, but when beekeepers hear this being said we automatically think, "Hey, leave our nectar source alone. We have already lost so many."

Killing and eradicating are two different things too, as you appear to know.
 
#58 ·
My Mom would prescribe a Chill Pill for you were she still alive. Get over yourself. Goodnight is right. I don't see why you can't respect the fact that we see things differently from different perspectives w/out getting snotty about it.

Have a nice life.
 
#61 ·
> Agree to disagree and go to the opposite corners of the boxing ring! lol

I think Joes_bees is in a class by himself with post #57. The visuals are scary, but I'm still not sure whether he was proposing the front or back side.

:eek:

And I'm not giving up icons until they are pried from my ...
 
#63 ·
In 1991 in Alberta we had 830 beekeepers with 147,000 colonies and in 2011 we had 798 beekeepers with 274,600 colonies.
I'll admit that some beekeepers have faced huge losses during those years but overall ,at least here, the industry is growing. This is why I don't believe anything is broke. We just adapt to the new challenges, learn from our mistakes and continue doing the best we can.
 
#66 ·
About the science in beekeeping: Review of the scientific method:
1. Ask a question, such as, do SBB work in my area
2. Do background and research, Research beekeepers observations, google technical papers, read some bee books........
3. Construct a hypothesis, If I add a SBB to my hives the bees will produce more honey in the hot summer months.
4. Test the hypothesis, Using similar colonies, add SBB to some and not to others...
5. Analyze the data, Make a comparison of how the different hives performed, be honest
6. Communicate your results, Tell you forom members your experiment and conclusions, write a technical paper

Don't a large portion of our forum members go through process? Sure they don't record all the data as they should, but from what I read on this forum several of you ask a question, draw a hypothesis, test your ideas, and draw some conclusions. As a group, we are not as far from science as some think.
 
#68 ·
As a group, we are not as far from science as some think.
IMHO, Lazy shooter's comments apply to even the "older generation" of beekeepers.

And a review of Acebird's resume shows that he is approximately 59 years old. :eek: Old enough to be a great-grandfather, and certainly a member of the "older generation", at least from the perspective of some of our younger members, perhaps like Westernbeekeper, 19 years old, according to some of his posts.

Full disclosure: My 60th birthday was earlier this summer.
 
#69 ·
I'm glad to see this thread got back on track (though at this point I almost wish it would just die ;) ). I'd like to apologize for post 57, I stayed up too late awaiting election results and am now cranky. Thank you Barry for moderating and Rader for providing comic relief.
 
#73 ·
Beekeeping is not broke(I agree with SQKCRK), but there are two areas that do effect beekeeping that are broke:

Government Scientists(excluding a certain Gentleman from the U of Neb) are no longer doing there job in an ethical and professional manner. In Jan of 2009, I went to listen to an entomologist from Illinois speak at Fermilab about CCD. I had prearranged to speak with her after the lecture about my successes with CCD. After listening to her I realized she had no clue about what causes CCD, and had not taken the time to discolor her smoker of propolize her hive tool(there where pictures). After the lecture I offered her with a copy of a peer review journal article that would have helped her. She was not interested. It turns out she had a pending grant that it might have jeopardized. In the end, her grant supported the paper I offered her.

The people that work for us(Govt) , need to go back to proper science, roll up their sleeves, get their hands dirty, and comprhend that maybe th ebeekeepers know more about bees(but not science) than they do, put their egos in a jar, and work for a FUNCTIONAL solution to CCD and other maladies.

The other "broke" part is the failure of those entrusted to protect our food supply, to stop the influx of "funny honey". Read the numbers of how much tariff money was avoided, then tell me how "there is no money to fund enforcement". Baloney. Somebody just ain't doin' their job, the money is there.

Crazy Roland
 
#76 ·
I am sorry, I missed the whole scandal. Couple of points:

- if everything is good in beekeeping as Mark and others stated, than - why scientists should bother and try to help beekeeping? The way, how "science" work in US - it should be demand for research and money. If bees are OK, than, there is no demand and thus, no money. I have to add that this is "local", US-specific approach. Many European countries (and their taxpayers) think differently. For instance, in Germany, there is country wide program to trace mite-resistant traits and ABH. They use pretty good scientific approach! Joes_bees you should see if you could find a place in Europe. It looks like bee-experts do not need you here, sad!

- aging - ridiculous discussion. Everybody is aging and there is no offense in it! I am 57 and my brain works at least twice slower than 20 years ago. My 85 mom could not understand my science even she was "trained" for the last 30 years. There are some examples of high scientific productivity in senior ages, but I know only 2-3 true examples. University (UC) has a policy that professor could not keep research Lab after age of 65. S/he could teach. The whole scientific population is aging. Average age when researcher finally got his/her own lab is close to 50 when scientific productivity already declining! We definitely need fresh young brains in the science - and yes, we have them (cheap), they come from China and other countries (Europe?). I was invited to work in US as a specialist of "national interest" - they could not find American on that position... the way, how science is treated on this forum is alarming.

-beekeeping is a craft in very good sense of this word. It is not a science and thus, all above is not applicable to beekeeping.
 
#78 ·
>>I'd like to apologize to sqkcrk and other beekeepers I offended on this board, I was disrespectful to your experience and knowledge in an attempt to assert my own importance in this community and I am far from proving it. I lost a bit of sleep over this thread, not because I was angry, but because I was humbled.

Joes_bees, relax. One topic to the next. Takes two, right? If everyone agreed on these kind of subjects there would be no need for discussion. Differing points of view makes discussion interesting. You have made for an interesting conversation.

That said, and to the point of your topic, do you feel the same way still, or has your point of view changed? I dont agree with your initial assertion. I wish you would give beekeepers more credit for what we are accomplishing.
 
#88 ·
Thank you all for your kind words.

That said, and to the point of your topic, do you feel the same way still, or has your point of view changed? I don't agree with your initial assertion. I wish you would give beekeepers more credit for what we are accomplishing.
After rereading the entire thread I would agree, I sound pretty morbid. It seems beekeeping is on a track of "breaking" and fixing, but I guess that's life and I should lighten up.

The word "broke" was a poor choice for a title as it is very vague and caused a number of different topics to arise in this thread.

Also the term beekeeping can be interpreted multiple ways as we've seen in this thread: the beekeeping industry, typical beekeeping practices, honeybees themselves, and I'm sure there were more.

I apologized early on for a bad first post that wasn't worded well, unfortunately it was too late and this mess of a thread happened.
 
#79 ·
On the off chance I am going against what I said before about not engaging I feel a need to clear something up.

I have not reviewed all of my Posts in this Thread, but, I don't believe I ever wrote that "everything is good" or that everything is fine or okay. I know better. My point was that things are not as bad as Joe seemed to think and definitely not as bad as they used to be sometime over the last 26 years since Varroa arrived.

I had no idea that Joe was refering to his personal situation, which I can relate to. It's tough Joe, I know. Living off of bees has not been easy and even though I started 10 years before varroa arrived I was on the front lines in a number of ways when tracheal and varroa first showed up and I have experienced all aspects of that History.

So Joe, thanks for apologizing. That shows your character in a good light.
 
#80 ·
The question was "Is Beekeeping broke?", to me that implies the people keeping bees and how they are operating. I don't see where the question was whether or not we need researchers and/or scientists.
Yes there are problems with hive health as there has been in the past and will be in the future. We need the researchers to look into these problems and hopefully find solutions that we can then apply to our bees. I feel that the beekeeping community has been doing that and that is why I say beekeeping isn't broke.
There are many seminars, field days, conventions and the like being held to promote the latest research in nutrition, IPM, queen rearing etc. These are presented by both local and national beekeeping organizations because they understand the need to keep up with current practices.
So Joes bees, don't give up on your dreams because we do need researchers who love bees!
 
#83 ·
The question was "Is Beekeeping broke?", to me that implies the people keeping bees and how they are operating. I don't see where the question was whether or not we need researchers and/or scientists....
I guess the answer is in the post #1:
"People may argue that science and technology have done a lot to hurt beekeeping, but please don't confuse gained knowledge with how people have chose to use it. (I'm not necessarily advocating wires and batteries in hives, just don't hate on research and ideas.)"
 
#86 ·
I believe that there is always room for improvement and that the use of science has it's value. I hope that is clear enough.

Isn't there a Scientific Beekeeping Website?

I don't know where the World would be w/ out Science. The PreHistoric Era perhaps? Certainly PreGrecoRoman Era.
 
#87 ·
Isn't there a Scientific Beekeeping Website?
Mark, today after thinking I come to idea that beekeeping is a craft and therefore, scientific approach is not applicable to it in many ways. So, I am greatly relieved - I don't need to worry about science at beesource AND I could keep bees as a hobby, which automatically prevents me from the bee-craft guild.
 
#92 ·
Withiut reading the entire thread, Which I am interested in doing I just don't have time to right now. I will add these thoughts.

Is beekeeping broken? If in fact they could keep bees 100 years ago, produce honey and other products of the hive. What has changed about the bees to make that less possible today?

I don' think the bees has changed. Man has changed. mans goals and expectations have changed.

Look at what happens to the demand for profits when you go from a lone farmer trying to put food on a table to a business model that must support employees equipment and the other mountain of overhead involved. Yet it is still that same old bee being asked to make that sort of increase in demand.
I think it is man, his goals and his expectations that have changed. and they have become completely unreasonable.
 
#93 ·
I think it is man, his goals and his expectations that have changed. and they have become completely unreasonable.

Will some computer geek do a search and find examples of photos of apiarys in the Hudson Valley of NY showing home apiaries of 200 colonies. This was not as uncommon as youy might think. They were all over the place and across many States. Michigan comes to mind. If I knew where those early 20th century and late 19th century photos were and I could I would Post them myself.
 
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