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  1. #121
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    wow sergey. i can see why you think it's 'broken'.

    maybe some of the others will chime in, but i haven't seen anything like what you are describing in my area.

    there are some differences in approach to what you need to know and practice for a large commercial operation vs. a smaller hobbiest or sideliner operation.

    randy oliver is crediting the smaller operations with coming up with some good advances. i guess it's because we have time to experiment more with our bees.

    good thing you found beesource.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #122
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    I think, Mark that you are mixing up a few things:
    - look at the title - it is about beekeeping broken, not YOUR apiary or your business;
    - you extrapolate your own feelings and success in managing YOUR business on the whole system.
    - increased (if any) production of honey and money is not necessary an indication of the well-being. Sometime, the machinery is so massive (indication of old days, now everything China-made flimsy) that it would continue for while even is some part is broken... the concern of some people what if this monster will collapse? Apparently, your opinion is that the "monster" will not collapse and will continue.
    - there is nothing bad about "broken" - it just indicates that it may be repaired! To my ESL taste, this wording is reasonable and not offensive to anybody.
    Thanks Sergey. That explains a lot.

    To your last set of points, partially true and true w/ you to of course. But, I do see what goes on in other peoples outfits, working w/ a few otyher commercial beekeepers. Also knowing a number of small scale beekeepers who have been coming to our new bee club. I keep my eyes and ears open on beesource andf other venues, such as the two major national bee magazines.

    I agree about the Thread Title, but we later found out it was about Joe's apiary and his experiences. Not exclusively, but quite a bit.

    Well, calling it a monster is your word, not mine. My point was that we will not keep bees into extinction. Tell Michael Palmer that his production is not an indication of success. His success comes from his work and knowledge of how to keep bees. His crops are amongst the largest in the State of NY and VT both. I dare say his pocket book is probably healthy also.

    If you did not make a sizeable amount of money as a Scientist how would you measure your success as a Scientist? I know money isn't everything and not the only indicator, but it is a means of measure.

    As a beekeeper I do know when something is wrong/broken in my apiary and when I was an Inspector in other peoples apiaries. If you are speaking about the industry as a whole being broken, to a certain degree it is in a sense. But there have always been trials to overcome. What's the alternative?

    Correct me if I am wrong, but you have two hives and have had them for two years or so? When you were in College, studying what you did, did you look at what you were being taught and tell the instructors and the Scientists w/ many years of experience that thbey were doing it wrong? How did that go?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  3. #123
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    He was 95. ... He was also a facebook friend.
    Facebook is killing now! What else? Anybody know anything about how education kills young men and women? or may be visiting concert-hall with classic music could kill? Be aware, stay in bee-yard and avoid all dangers modern life presents! Russian says - only alive person could die... if you are not alive, you will not die. Be healthy and do not spent too much time in front of computer, in university, concert hall, you name it! be alive if you could
    Sergey
    Серёжа, Sergey

  4. #124
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Were I a whiner I could whine louder than all of y'all. But I choose not toi whine, I choose to shine.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  5. #125
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    ....good thing you found beesource.
    yes, many thanks everyone for your help and support! I think, beesource is a great resource for people like myself. Sergey
    Серёжа, Sergey

  6. #126
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    But not your only resource I hope.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    >>Russian says - only alive person could die...

    i like this saying sergey. it reminds me of a line from a jimmy buffet song:

    "i'd rather die while i'm living than try to live when i'm dead.

    and to mark's point about whining, and solomon has recently made the same point,

    it is easier to point out flaws than it is to offer up solutions.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  8. #128
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Mark, you make a really great post! I'll incorporate my comments into your post if you do not mind.

    To your last set of points, partially true and true w/ you to of course. But, I do see what goes on in other peoples outfits, working w/ a few otyher commercial beekeepers. Also knowing a number of small scale beekeepers who have been coming to our new bee club. I keep my eyes and ears open on beesource andf other venues, such as the two major national bee magazines. ==> I think, I am not very clear in my ESL - I was talking about the whole beekeeping system, not about particular small or large enterprise.

    I agree about the Thread Title, but we later found out it was about Joe's apiary and his experiences. Not exclusively, but quite a bit. ==> I interpret it in my own way as probably many others did.

    Well, calling it a monster is your word, not mine. ==> Sorry, my ESL - "monster" just by size, nothing else!

    My point was that we will not keep bees into extinction. ==> I agree. Nobody wants to eliminate bees. I am talking about approaches, which emerged relatively recently alone with "natural" movement. In particular, I am talking about approaches, which provides to bees the environment closer to their natural habitat.

    Tell Michael Palmer that his production is not an indication of success. ==> Not to me. I do not measure success in $$.
    His success comes from his work and knowledge of how to keep bees. ==> I respect somebody's efforts as long as it does not interfere with community interests and it does not affect me in negative way.
    His crops are amongst the largest in the State of NY and VT both. I dare say his pocket book is probably healthy also. I think this is a big problem. I strongly believe that smaller apiaries close to natural conditions are better way to go. I do not care about somebody's "pocket books".

    If you did not make a sizeable amount of money as a Scientist how would you measure your success as a Scientist? I know money isn't everything and not the only indicator, but it is a means of measure. ==> Absolutely not true! As a matter a fact, many Nobel Prize Laureates were nearly in poverty before the prize. One great mathematician in interview says that he is very happy to accept Nobel Prize because "now I could have some money for my retirement". Sorry - no links here.

    As a beekeeper I do know when something is wrong/broken in my apiary and when I was an Inspector in other peoples apiaries. If you are speaking about the industry as a whole being broken, to a certain degree it is in a sense. ==> Yes, I am speaking as a whole. Again - I am not criticizing, I just feel than many things may be improved.

    But there have always been trials to overcome. ==> it is "stony age" approach... sorry

    What's the alternative? ==> I guess to be more open to "new" ideas, new people, new approaches. Not to be in denial to any changes...

    Correct me if I am wrong, but you have two hives and have had them for two years or so? ==> Yes, but, keep in mind, I am a quick learner by profession. My 57 old already declining brain is working probably 50x quicker than somebody's else. No personal offense, it is just physiology... but I am horrible at any sport, newer won...

    When you were in College, studying what you did, did you look at what you were being taught and tell the instructors and the Scientists w/ many years of experience that thbey were doing it wrong? How did that go? ==> this is actually great question! You need to remember that I am from different culture. In Russia we have saying that student MUST be better than a teacher. It is common to be very proud of student who ask tough question and challenge the teacher. In fact, I was notorious for that. In school, we had a battle with chemistry teacher all the time - I studied 10x more at home to prepare to her a really "tough" question - all my schoolmates love it because it effectively cancelled the class (me and teacher were busy discussing the issue and class had a nice entertainment). Chemistry teacher ended up letting me to teach the class (and she supervised), THAN my schoolmates hated me, but it was too late... school was over. I love that teacher and she loves me! She was a really great teacher. At University, professors basically provoke students for questions. If you did not ask very complicated question - you would never be A+ student. Now, if student do not challenge me, this student is so-so to me... brain need exercise all time.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  9. #129
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    But not your only resource I hope.
    Sure, the whole Internet is at the tips of my fingers! Also, I must mention this earlier - I find that beekeepers are amusing people, really great! I am trying to learn from all sources available. And bees, yes, I am learning from my girls, how i forgot?
    Серёжа, Sergey

  10. #130
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    ...and to mark's point about whining, and solomon has recently made the same point, it is easier to point out flaws than it is to offer up solutions.
    True. It is bad if you have such impression from my posts.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  11. #131
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    no such impression sergey.

    i haven't been keeping up with all that has been said in this thread, and i was responding to mark's comment on 'whining'.

    my comment was as much for myself as for anyone else.

    i am first generation in america, my family came here from macedonia.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #132
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    If you did not make a sizeable amount of money as a Scientist how would you measure your success as a Scientist? I know money isn't everything and not the only indicator, but it is a means of measure.
    There's another thing I guess I just have to agree to disagree with you about. I currently work with a lot of people who measure success by money.

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but you have two hives and have had them for two years or so? When you were in College, studying what you did, did you look at what you were being taught and tell the instructors and the Scientists w/ many years of experience that thbey were doing it wrong? How did that go?
    There has been one summer between now and when I was 16 that I did not have any hives. When I was in college lets just say I was practicing minimal interference beekeeping.

    I did ask a lot of questions, point out mistakes in text books, and argue things that didn't make sense to me throughout my education, and for the most part teachers and professors really liked me. I think in many cases they were happy to see someone's wheels turning. If the next generation doesn't ask you to explain yourself how will they ever know why you came to that conclusion? That's why I'm hesitant when someone's reason is "because I've kept 700 hive and was an inspector." Those credentials do give your opinion credibility and imply what you are doing is correct. But it does nothing to tell me why it is correct.

    A fundamental understanding of why something works is necessary to improve without losing ground.

  13. #133
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    no such impression sergey. ==> thank you!

    my comment was as much for myself as for anyone else. "it is easier to point out flaws than it is to offer up solutions. "==> absolutely agree, we all need to remember this! Russians says: One could see a tiny particle in the eye of other, but could not sense the log in his own eye. We should start from our-self,remove log from our eyes and than point to the particle in somebody else...

    i am first generation in america, my family came here from macedonia. ==> I am from Russia, hello!
    Last edited by cerezha; 11-10-2012 at 03:20 AM. Reason: was trying to use smile...
    Серёжа, Sergey

  14. #134
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    >>Russians says: One could see a tiny particle in the eye of other, but could not sense the log in his own eye.

    it's a good saying sergery. it comes from Jesus of the bible. (luke 6:42)
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #135
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    >>Russians says: One could see a tiny particle in the eye of other, but could not sense the log in his own eye.

    it's a good saying sergery. it comes from Jesus of the bible. (luke 6:42)
    Good Lord, don't tell me Jesus was a Russian.

  16. #136
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    >>Russians says: One could see a tiny particle in the eye of other, but could not sense the log in his own eye.

    it's a good saying sergery. it comes from Jesus of the bible. (luke 6:42)
    As a person who has spent time in a pit pulling a pitsaw I know the origin of the saying and you can attribute it to Jesus, but I imagine he may actually not have said that himself. That could be a King James Version addition. I'm not sure about whether boards sawn from logs w/ blades of iron and steel were arounds in Jesus's time. I'll have to look that up.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  17. #137
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    As in Beekeeping, I would say almost all of farming is broken, broken by necessity. We humans keep making more and more humans, more and more humans need more and more food and more and more food, at least for now, means more and more monoculture farming practices which operate in direct contratdiction to the laws of nature. Don't hate the system that feeds the world, work to make it better, safer, more sustainable. A new/old system of Farming is making a comeback - it's called the sustainable farm or when I was growing up, the family farm. We have a long way to go but I don't beleive the world can continue to shift from and agrarian culture and continue to feed the growing population, I think we will develop a road long term to better sustainability through choice or necessitity.

  18. #138
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    thanks for that point of view mark. good teachers uses examples of things their students are familar with and create allegories or parables that allow the student to grasp a deeper meaning.

    from time to time throughout history there have been those who have been able to impart wisdom that allow us to see past the obvious.

    here's one thing i feel is broken in the world of beekeeping. it seems that there has been a lot of time and energy spent worrying about varroa, and even more time and energy arguing about what to do about it.

    not that we, and most importantly the bees, (especially feral bees), haven't gradually made some progress there, but.....

    nosema looks to me to be something that should get a little more attention than it has.

    a well trained and very experienced scientist beekeeper refers to nosema as the 'smoldering epidemic'.

    'raises hand'

    what if it turned out to be that 85% of our dead outs are nosema related?

    isn't it true that nosema has been linked to ccd?

    are we testing for nosema as often as we should?

    what can we do, and what should we not do if the majority of colony collapsed are from nosema?


    is beekeeping broke? nawwww.
    Last edited by squarepeg; 11-10-2012 at 09:52 AM. Reason: grammer
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #139
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    I have had the chance to ask a number of people what my various nosema counts mean and many of those people either have no definitive answer or say that it looks like I aught to treat, just to be sure. Not satisfying answers to me. So I err on the side of not wasting time, money, and labor doing something which IO can see no positive results from. Unlike applying a mite treatment and seeing dead mites and colonys that survive the Winter.

    Nosema and its effects are still somewhat a mystery to many.

    If anyone tells you they know what is causing CCD (the cause of 5 out of 30% Winterloss) they are either lying to you or themselves or both. If we beekeepers effectively addressed the things we can control which cause Winterloss then CCD would be a minor unpleasantness.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  20. #140
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    Default Re: Is Beekeeping broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    It is common to be very proud of student who ask tough question and challenge the teacher. In fact, I was notorious for that. In school, we had a battle with chemistry teacher all the time - I studied 10x more at home to prepare to her a really "tough" question - all my schoolmates love it because it effectively cancelled the class (me and teacher were busy discussing the issue and class had a nice entertainment). Chemistry teacher ended up letting me to teach the class (and she supervised), THAN my schoolmates hated me, but it was too late... school was over. I love that teacher and she loves me! She was a really great teacher. At University, professors basically provoke students for questions. If you did not ask very complicated question - you would never be A+ student. Now, if student do not challenge me, this student is so-so to me... brain need exercise all time. [/B]
    I am glad you came back with this sergy. I don't think most people realize how fast you can lean when you challenge the expert. I think when it come to measure how a teacher accepts a challenge from a student measures whether the teacher is good or bad. It is definitely not about money.
    The students that are looking for entertainment find a way. The students that are looking for enlightenment stay engrossed.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

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