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Maintaining amount of hives

24K views 79 replies 26 participants last post by  Oldtimer 
#1 ·
Hello all,
Just a quick question and I should have asked this long ago? If I have 5 hives that I start out with, how do I maintain them instead of splitting and making more if I just want to continue with 5???
 
#3 ·
i would suggest 3 nucs from splits every summer that you can overwinter. combine back in the spring-if you have no winter die outs. repeat every year. this also provides you with replacement queens should you lose one or want to replace one that has aggressive offspring.
 
#7 ·
This thread distresses me. Pamela asked for a way to maintain constant colony count without splitting. 3 of 4 responses recommended splitting. Don't you folks read the question? The 4th response recommended doing nothing - a viable answer, if honey production is not a consideration. But five colonies implies honey production is a consideration - too many for just garden pollination.

Am also amazed how many beekeepers still think that splitting is the best answer for swarm prevention. Or, the only answer. Checkerboarding (CB) has been around for over 15 years and very few have tried it. CB beats splitting in so many ways, we will not go into all the advantages here, other than to report that it is simpler, cheaper, less work, and produces much more honey than any broodnest disturbance technique. An ideal way for Pamela to meet her objectives.

Several advantages are treated in more detail in the last few articles in Point of View, this site, from home page, scroll to the end.
Walt
 
#13 ·
This thread distresses me. Pamela asked for a way to maintain constant colony count without splitting. 3 of 4 responses recommended splitting. Don't you folks read the question? The 4th response recommended doing nothing - a viable answer, if honey production is not a consideration. But five colonies implies honey production is a consideration - too many for just garden pollination.
How does Pamela make up her winter losses without splitting? And without some re-queening regimen...ie splitting and re-queening, how does she prevent africanization in Texas?

5 are five times as much fun as 1.
 
#9 ·
starting 3 nucs is much simpler and easier to understand/implement for a BEGINNER than CB'ing,one of the reasons it has not spread.
having banked nuks has other advantages for the beginner,such as banked queens,swift replacements for winter losses, and the possibility of recouping some money spent getting started in bees.
better solution? can't say. certainly better suited for a BEGINNER.
Five + three does not equal five.-until you sell or combine them.
 
#10 ·
I think the question was how to maintain that number, and since everyone has at least occasional deadouts, you really should do a few splits in the summer and overwinter. I plan to, on top of doing a few splits for expansion and collect a few swarms.

There is always a market for good nucs, no need to add hives just because you have one.

Peter
 
#11 ·
A combination of birth and border/imigration control? I too have a limited space and time to devote, but have found that I need to figure on at least a 20% loss, so I am constantaly shuffling between one hive too many and one hive less (more like it), so always end up buying a spring nuc each year - when I have time, I plan on reading and implementing Michael Palmers wintering nuc practices. I'm sure that some of the suggestions given here work just fine - but I question that fixed number over each season.

BTW, I get hundreds of lbs of honey off my 5 'garden' hives each year.
 
#14 ·
For the record, we don't have winter losses. Even better than that, we don't have weaklings in the spring. A little care in the fall insures uniformly good wintering. Yes, I know - you don't believe any of that, but it happens to be a fact. The input from GA on winter losses is an admission of neglect. Pamela, in central TX, could get the same results we do.

M. H.
We agree that CB is perceived as complicated, but it is not. If the beginner's comprehension is taxed by alternating frames of honey and empty comb, he or she has serious mental problems, and should be constrained to quarters.
And you contend that splitting/nucing is simpler? How many threads have you seen here where the attendent problems went awry? Queen problems, feeding/robbing, swarming, etc. Sorry, have to disagree on the relative simplicity.

Requeening is a different question. We also have no need to requeen, except to upgrade genetics. CBed colonies automatically supersede in the spring. That would lead to gradual Africanization in an area populated by mostly Africanized drones. Pamela would have to make the adjustment when the problem presents itself. Increased defensiveness would tell her when.

According to our records, about 5% of colonies fail to successfully supersede in the spring, and the potential for laying workers shows up while in main flow and when we are supering. Lifting off several supers to check for queenright is a nuisance through that period, but a check is made promptly at harvest. If laying workers are found at that time, we have a fix for that problem. The concept of addition of a frame of brood at weekly intervals for 3 weeks originated here. (Perhaps independently of others) If my occurance rate of 5% holds for central TX, Pamela could expect to apply this concept once every four years.

Walt
 
#16 · (Edited)
The input from GA on winter losses is an admission of neglect.
\Walt
A 33%+/- of loss across the board is not only a figment of my (our) imagination, but more of a matter of "neglect".

Why waste the resources, time, money and energy implementing proceedures to restore, maintain or increase our populations, when the simple act of CB solves all problems - environmental, weather, biological. viral, natural instincts... a genius in their own mind.

I reiterate that throwing bees in boxes and trying to maintain an exact number of hives year-to-year has been for many years, problematic - now apperently solved via CB.

MP - isn't it funny how some people just get under your skin? Raising bees as the majority of us have been doing for some hundred years or so, suddenly becomes neglect. I admire everyone who is passionate about it and continually strives for improvements, but labeling standard beekeeping practices as 'neglect' spreads a lot of blame across a lot of respected people over a number of many years.
 
#17 ·
hoodswoods,
Don't think we said or implied that CB corrected the problems associated with winter losses. We did say 'care in the fall.' - not described. We considered opening a thread in Aug/Sept describing that care, but I do not enjoy the flac that a deviation to standard management always brings. So, we do not open many threads. The following short-form lists some of the improvements added to the full season management based on observation, in the order they were added:

Langstroth hive design affects comb usage in more than one way.
1. The bees don't "like" the break in functional comb between boxes. This results in reluctance to "jump the gap" in mutiple different circumstances.
2. Something about brood-rearing in a deep that distorts cluster shape - flat on the bottom and rounded at the top. You only see a round cluster when it's quite small.
3. The flat bottomed broodnest in conjunction with the gap of 1 above inhibits storing of the pollen reserve below, which is natural in the wild brood nest.
4. The bees much prefer to rear brood in a deep over a shallow.

Merging these observations, we elected to change wintering configuration to a deep and the rest all shallows. During the config. change, we were also testing the bottom "pollen box." We got lucky and the results proved to be better than we had any reason to expect. Took 2 years. When complete, the changes produced reliable wintering.

Queen loss: To avoid having the queen fall into the cold water collected on the bottom board, the hive is tilted slightly forward for positive bottom board drainage. No more overwinter queen loss.

This stuff is not a secret. It's available to all for free in POV. If you enjoy winter dead-outs and the joys of splitting/nucing, by all means ignore a way that produces more honey and takes less effort. No skin off my buns.

Do you see a minor discrepancy between your post and your tag line?
Walt
 
#18 · (Edited by Moderator)
>>>Don't think we said or implied that CB corrected the problems associated with winter losses. We did say 'care in the fall.' - not described. We considered opening a thread in Aug/Sept describing that care, but I do not enjoy the flac that a deviation to standard management always brings. So, we do not open many threads.

Flac? You mean disagreement? Walt, if you tell others their beekeeping management is all wrong, you must expect some amount of questioning and challenge.


>>The following short-form lists some of the improvements added to the full season management based on observation, in the order they were added:

Langstroth hive design affects comb usage in more than one way.
1. The bees don't "like" the break in functional comb between boxes. This results in reluctance to "jump the gap" in mutiple different circumstances.

Says you. In 40 years I have seen no evidence of this. What's your proof that the bees don't "like" the bee space between brood boxes and/or supers.

>>2. Something about brood-rearing in a deep that distorts cluster shape - flat on the bottom and rounded at the top. You only see a round cluster when it's quite small.

Distorts cluster shape?? Really?? And what possible problem would come from your flat bottomed clusters. Hey, just yesterday I was looking at clusters from the bottom up on a dozen multiple story hives...2 deeps and a medium. They were about 8" from the bottom board, and nothing flat about them.

>>3. The flat bottomed broodnest in conjunction with the gap of 1 above inhibits storing of the pollen reserve below, which is natural in the wild brood nest.

I too find pollen in the bottom box. Even in my multiple deep box colonies.

>>4. The bees much prefer to rear brood in a deep over a shallow.

But not in a deep over a deep? So my colonies in 2 deeps, 2 deeps and a medium, 3 deeps, 3 deeps and 2 mediums, 4 mediums, 6 mediums, 2 deep and 3 mediums...that have 9, 10, 12, and 14 frames of brood at the start of dandelion, prefer your setup. Really. Could have fooled me Walt.

>>Merging these observations, we elected to change wintering configuration to a deep and the rest all shallows. During the config. change, we were also testing the bottom "pollen box." We got lucky and the results proved to be better than we had any reason to expect. Took 2 years. When complete, the changes produced reliable wintering.

Glad your bees winter 100%, and your swarming is 0%. I'm not that good. I only had an 8% loss last winter, and surely I had some swarming.


>>This stuff is not a secret. It's available to all for free in POV. If you enjoy winter dead-outs and the joys of splitting/nucing, by all means ignore a way that produces more honey and takes less effort. No skin off my buns.

Personally, I do enjoy making nucs and raising queens and all that bee business. Enjoy making honey, too. Tons, and tons, and tons of it...with deep boxes and medium boxes with that bee space between them all. Sure glad my bees can jump Walt, or they'd be forever resigned to living in the bottom box.

Walt, I'm sorry for the long winded disagreement, but if you're going to tell me I'm wrong, I'm not going to sit here and listen to your dogma. If you want to include some science i your claims, then we can at least have an intelligent debate. And by the way...who's WE?
 
#42 ·
1. The bees don't "like" the break in functional comb between boxes. This results in reluctance to "jump the gap" in mutiple different circumstances.

Says you. In 40 years I have seen no evidence of this. What's your proof that the bees don't "like" the bee space between brood boxes and/or supers.

>>2. Something about brood-rearing in a deep that distorts cluster shape - flat on the bottom and rounded at the top. You only see a round cluster when it's quite small.

Distorts cluster shape?? Really?? And what possible problem would come from your flat bottomed clusters. Hey, just yesterday I was looking at clusters from the bottom up on a dozen multiple story hives...2 deeps and a medium. They were about 8" from the bottom board, and nothing flat about them.
Hoping you would answer my questions, Walt. What is your proof that bees don't like the break between bodies, and that it in any way effects them negatively.
What are you talking about...flat clusters. How do these "flat" clusters impact the bees, the clusters, and the future of the colony?
 
#23 ·
I wish I could draw a picture. I will try w/ words. When I was taught about reversing brood boxes, deeps, as a means of controlling swarming tendency and to prep the colony for early flows the illustration was a brood pattern in the shape of a ball, soccer ball size maybe, which existed from just under the top bar of the top deep and down into the top of the bottom deep.

Imagine two deep frames, one above the other, and a circle starting at the top, just under the top bar of the top frame, extending down below the top bar of the bottom frame. That is what I often observe and what can be found in my hives right now. So, what's this flat bottom wcubed speaks of? If that isn't too challenging?
 
#24 ·
I'm curious to find the research that says few have tried checkerboarding? Almost every beek I know, and I know many, have expressed interest it in, many have used is successfully, I promote it and use and I still do nucs and splits for maintaining numbers, increase, sales and for the same practical and fun reasons as both Mikes expressed. One methodolgy that is successful in one's operation we all know may not be successful elsewhere due to a wide varitey of factors which include experiance at the top of the list. Beekeepers have many reasons and goals for keeping bees and with the same processes get different results.

I would suggest Pamela visit Walt's exceptional resources and practice checkerboarding as a great managment tool, but in the event as a newbie she does not have the perfect result of 5% losses, which is the absolute rare execption that results from years of experiance, intense study and disciplined practices as in Walts work, she's not facing 5 deadouts from inexperiance or factors beyond her control. Today unfortunately it's not the norm so she would be wise to also have a couple of nucs in reserve. A great deal can be learned from this very simple manipulation and "birthing" a new colony and watching it grow is fun and rewarding. Splitting and combining splits with hives in late spring is in effect making an instant 2 queen unit which studies by Dunham and Faraar for similar 2 queen production increased honey production in the study area by a minimum of 40lbs. per hive and as much as 100 lbs a hive in a season. So in addition to the goal of maintaining a set number of hives, if you do winter well you are increasing production for the following year by wintering nucs. Sounds like a win/win situation to me.
 
#27 ·
Plenty flac. Will work back up from the last, since it's in sight.
sqkcrk,#23
In the southeast, many local beekeepers winter in a deep and super. In late winter, the brood nest expands to fill the deep and the super is still filled with capped honey. (their reserve) The colony will often complete swarm preps entirely within the deep and not disturb their reserve in the super above. In that case, the brood nest will will be flat across bottom bars between the stores in outside frames. It's the bottom of the functional comb. No place to store the pollen reserve below. The same thing happens in the double deep. Our bees winter in the bottom deep and the temporary expansion into the upper to rear swarm bees does not alter the flat bottomed nest in the lower. The backfilling of swarm preps refills the upper with nectar and brood is limited to the lower deep for the rest of the season. Still no place to store the pollen reserve below.
It's a slightly different scenario for the northern locations where the broodnest is in the upper deep and the lower is basically empty in late winter. Reversal puts the upper broodnest at the bottom to allow for expansion into the empty. Locally, the broodnest still expands across the bottom to the bottom bars and there is typically no pollen reserve stored below.

MP #22
Item 4. was poorly worded and misleading. What it was intended to say is that if a colony is given a choice of a deep or shallow to rear brood, they will choose the deep. Their choice of a deep instead of medium is not as severe as for a shallow.

Since I use 9 frames from bottom board to cover, my brood frames are typically only 5 frames between frames of stores. If I had problems with wintering, I might tighten up the nest to get more brood cells within a given cluster size.

You seem to keep forgetting that my spring brood nest is not limited to the deep. The brood nest expands up through several shallows. My total broodnest at peak build up would rival yours.

Back to pg 1
Walt
 
#29 ·
Still working backward.
sqkcrk, #20
Are conclusions from observations outlawed? When 6 queens were lost in one winter, and all were slightly tilted to the rear, thought it reasonable to assume there was a connection.

MP #18
Have yet to say you are wrong. On another thread I said that you and I both report what we see and they do differ in many ways. Because they are different is not necessarily a disagreement. Did you miss that post?

"We" includes a friend and neighbor, Harold, who acquired the last of my colonies a few years ago. For the first time in several years, I have a combined colony in my backyard. An experiment that you may hear more about if it turns out well.

Won't go into the differences in what we see. Some are quite subtle and you have seen them for so long that for you, they are normal. (a guess)

Walt
 
#30 ·
Still working backward.
sqkcrk, #20
Are conclusions from observations outlawed? When 6 queens were lost in one winter, and all were slightly tilted to the rear, thought it reasonable to assume there was a connection.

Walt

Conclusions from observatiopns are not outlawed. But when I ask you to tell me what you saw and explain what led you to that conclusion there is no need on your part to automatically think that I think you are full of something. It was a question asked for edification and a chance for you to illustrate your observation.

I have never seen that. Which doesn't mean anything other than I haven't seen it. I may not be as observant as others. It may not occur to me to look. I don't know I just haven't seen some of the many things you have, so I ask.

By the way, I believe you saw what you say you saw and your conclusion to tilt the hive to address the problem is probably the right reaction. I wonder why or how often queens drop to the bottom board?
 
#31 ·
sqkcrk,
I would guess it happens frequently. Instinct. In the wild brood nest the comb is anchored continuously down both sides and over the top where it started with no "communication" holes. I would think that their natural instinct would be to go to the bottom of the comb to change sides for each comb. The Queen, with the heavy rear end could easily get pried loose, negotiating the turn. Falling the 3/4 to 7/8 inch jump up space would not hurt her, except in the case of collected, instantly-chilling water. Note that the lower edge of natural comb is not squared off and tapers to an edge that makes the turn almost a 180.
Walt
 
#32 ·
pamela's biggest challenge to checkerboarding her five hives that she is starting out with is that she may not have enough drawn comb in reserve to do it with.

i went from 4 hives at the beginning of last season to 10 last fall by splitting and adding nucs.

9 of 10 made it through last winter, but i only had comb in reserve to checkerboard one of them this spring. i realize this is only one, but this colony did not swarm and produced very well.

of the remaining 8 that were not checkerboarded, i was able to catch 2 of them prior to swarming by noticing the swarm preps described by walt in his papers. i.e. first the backfilling of empty cells just above the upper broodnest 'arch', and then backfilling in the broodnest proper. i split these two hives prior to their swarming.

the other 6 were hives were not expected to swarm, because they were overwintered nucs ranging from a few frames of bees to one deep of bees. they went on to swarm anyway, (i wasn't watching them for that, but i was able to catch 4 back).

i am looking forward to being able to checkerboard more hives next season, now that i have surplus drawn comb.
 
#33 ·
instead of splitting and making more if I just want to continue with 5???
You have started quite a discussion here! :) Did you get your answer yet? In my opinion you do not need to worry about keeping your number of hives down. That will take care of its self. Is your concern that you don't want the expense of more equipment to make the splits? If so, you can utilize equipment from colonies that fail. If your concern is the process of splitting, you may eventually find yourself without bees or buying more bees.
 
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