"treatment treadmill"

[Oldtimer]

Yes. Look at what caused the small cluster.

Could be genetic but if not there are several reasons for a particular hive seeming detirmined to go too small in winter and this is something that can often be remedied (before the event).

[Barry]

ace, is it really true that each and every form of treatment leaves harmful residues in the equipment?

We know it's not true. We can continue to be extreme in our positions, but the truth usually isn't there. I would say "harmful enough to make a significant impact." I find it hard to believe that a person couldn't use some of the current treatments and still be able to phase into being TF, still using existing equipment.

[squarepeg]

john, in the 90% from starvation, were the food stores 100% gone?

[jmgi]

In every case food was not an issue, plenty of sealed honey and sugar syrup within two inches of the edge of the clusters, cells in the center of the cluster stuffed with bees head first.

John

[Adam Foster Collins]

I'm not treating this year, for the simple fact that I have - over the last few years - heard from too many very intelligent and experienced people, who are contradicting one another.

I think most of us would agree that the activities of humans have had some unfortunate effects on the honeybee. (That's not to say that we haven't had some positive ones too...) But most would suspect that CCD, Varroa and other issues have been furthered or caused by our activities in some way.

The problem is in sifting out which activities are problematic. Let's take a quick look at things that have been discussed here and other places as potentially being a problem or "bad", or "better" for the bees:

• Hive type
• cell sizes
• entrance sizes and locations
• Ventilation
• Sugar
• Corn Syrup
• Smoke
• packages
• swarm control
• drone removal
• colony density
• essential oils
• chemical treatments for mites
• antibiotics
• pollen substitute
• wintering approaches

It seems that everything - like, E V E R Y T H I N G. Is debated, and nothing is agreed upon.

So when, after treating for mites over my first couple of winters, I took out my first drone brood last spring and found it just teeming with mites, I just through my hands up. I sat down with that drone comb in the sun and I thought what - after all this study do I KNOW? Not much. But here's the list:

•*After probably 50 million years (ish) on earth, the bees are here. There are bees in my yard, right outside.
• No human is able to claim complete understanding of them and conclusively demonstrate that they do.
• After a couple of decades of throwing everything we have at them, the Varroa mites appear stronger and more common than ever.
• A good number of people claim to be maintaining healthy bees without any consistent management strategy which is common to all.
• There appears to be no consistent or clear evidence that people who don't treat are losing any greater percentage of their bees than people who do.
• People who do treat seem just as worried about their bees making it through the winter as people who don't.

Having seen these things from my perspective, I've just decided to do my best to minimize my 'messing' with the bees. I'll try to stay out of their way as much as possible, for I can see absolutely no conclusive evidence that anything human kind is doing is correct - or incorrect. It's one giant mass of debating contradictory conclusions.

Too many mixed messages when it comes to treating for mites. So I'm not doing it, and I will see if there's any difference.

Adam

[squarepeg]

In every case food was not an issue, plenty of sealed honey and sugar syrup within two inches of the edge of the clusters, cells in the center of the cluster stuffed with bees head first.

John

hmmm. i see that you in michigan. i guess it's possible it got to cold for them to move the 2", although last winter was more mild than most.

makes me wonder though about a gut parasite in those.

[Solomon Parker]

head-down in empty cells and give the impression of starving

I would just like to point out that bees are always head down in empty cells when they are clustering. That's how it's done.

[TWall]

I'm not treating this year, for the simple fact that I have - over the last few years - heard from too many very intelligent and experienced people, who are contradicting one another.

Adam,

I'm on the opposite side of the coin as you. I haven't treated. I have had colonies overwinter fine and I have had strong colonies die earlier in the winter.

Mites are a problem.

I'm planning on doing an OA dribble this year. There is probably a 50/50 chance I will do it.

I'm beginning to think the biggest problem is not having hives as strong as possible. I'm trying to learn ot be a better beekeeper. I think that will improve my a number things, including how my colonies overwinter.

I think it is more important to look at overall colony health and strength, and then decide what you choose to do to improve your colonies. You may decide to requeen. You may decide to change equipment. You may decide to feed. You may decide to do nothing.

I don't think we can take anyone's recipe for beekeeping and follow it and be successful. There is more to beekeeping than just putting the correct pieces together. We need to learn to be beekeepers.

Tom

[jmgi]

squarepeg,

These die outs didn't happen last winter, it was about three winters ago I think, last winter was not bad at all up here. John

[squarepeg]

understood john. maybe too cold for the cluster to move then if it stayed really cold too long. or maybe
they got on some brood and wouldn't move.

[squarepeg]

I don't think we can take anyone's recipe for beekeeping and follow it and be successful. There is more to beekeeping than just putting the correct pieces together. We need to learn to be beekeepers.

tom, excellent point.

[Acebird]

ace, is it really true that each and every form of treatment leaves harmful residues in the equipment?

If you are talking chemical treatments I will say yes. If you are talking about culling drones then I say no. If you chemically treat and then try not treating for a while then you can say you are practicing treatment free but your hive isn't treatment free so in the sense of a scientific experiment you can't conclude that treatment free doesn't work if your colonies should die.

[squarepeg]

o.k.

[Acebird]

I find it hard to believe that a person couldn't use some of the current treatments and still be able to phase into being TF, still using existing equipment.

It is bee keeping. You can do anything you want. But are you going to preach from then on your losses are due to not treating when you put colonies in contaminated hives?

[Barry]

Again Ace, you will need to define "contaminated." Right now, I'm contaminated with asbestos because I just pulled up some old vinyl flooring in our kitchen. It won't have any measurable impact on me continuing to live my life.

[Acebird]

Again Ace, you will need to define "contaminated."

I am pretty sure that is already defined. A hive that is treated with chemicals will be contaminated to a measurable degree verses one that has not.

It won't have any measurable impact on me continuing to live my life.

It depends on how you pulled up the floor as to whether you contaminated the air while you were working. It could have serious impact and it is non reversible.

[Barry]

I am pretty sure that is already defined. A hive that is treated with chemicals will be contaminated to a measurable degree verses one that has not.

You going to keep evading the question? "to a measurable degree", who's measuring and to what degree?

It depends on how you pulled up the floor as to whether you contaminated the air while you were working. It could have serious impact and it is non reversible.

Again, "depends", yes it depends on what treatment is used in a hive and whether or not it has any significant impact on anything in order to go treatment free.

In fact, people have been living in this 'treated' house (asbestos in the felt under the siding, in the siding, in the flooring, lead in the paint) since 1888 and you'd be hard pressed to prove that they haven't lived a healthy life in spite of the physical structure.

[Acebird]

Again, "depends", yes it depends on what treatment is used in a hive and whether or not it has any significant impact on anything in order to go treatment free.

Have it your way Barry, I think this is precisely what Sergey was speaking of in the thread "is beekeeping broke" with your line of reasoning. If you are doing and experiment you don't contaminate the data and then arrive at a conclusion. It makes the experiment meaningless.

[Barry]

This isn't about "scientific experiments." You brought this into the discussion to try and give your statement more factual grounds.

"I don't believe it to be so because it means wiping out all your equipment and starting over from scratch."

You will first have to prove that all chemicals leave residues in the hive that significantly impact the ability to go treatment free with said equipment.

[Oldtimer]

Let's use a direct example, Formic Acid is used as a treatment. FA evaporates easily and is applied in such a way that as it evaporates the vapor permeates the whole hive. It condenses onto everything including combs, bees, and mites, hopefully in enough concentration to kill the mites but not the bees. Over the next day or so most of it re-evaporates and leaves the hive, and over the next few weeks whatever still may be there continues to evaporate until levels of FA in that hive have returned to the same very small levels that would be there naturally.

So Ace. If you bought a hive that had been treated with Formic Acid 6 months ago, how would chemical contamination prevent you attempting chemical free beekeeping?