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  1. #161
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,996

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Yes. Look at what caused the small cluster.

    Could be genetic but if not there are several reasons for a particular hive seeming detirmined to go too small in winter and this is something that can often be remedied (before the event).
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #162
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,442

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    ace, is it really true that each and every form of treatment leaves harmful residues in the equipment?
    We know it's not true. We can continue to be extreme in our positions, but the truth usually isn't there. I would say "harmful enough to make a significant impact." I find it hard to believe that a person couldn't use some of the current treatments and still be able to phase into being TF, still using existing equipment.
    Regards, Barry

  3. #163
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,531

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    john, in the 90% from starvation, were the food stores 100% gone?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #164
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,864

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    In every case food was not an issue, plenty of sealed honey and sugar syrup within two inches of the edge of the clusters, cells in the center of the cluster stuffed with bees head first.

    John

  5. #165
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
    Posts
    1,974

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    I'm not treating this year, for the simple fact that I have - over the last few years - heard from too many very intelligent and experienced people, who are contradicting one another.

    I think most of us would agree that the activities of humans have had some unfortunate effects on the honeybee. (That's not to say that we haven't had some positive ones too...) But most would suspect that CCD, Varroa and other issues have been furthered or caused by our activities in some way.

    The problem is in sifting out which activities are problematic. Let's take a quick look at things that have been discussed here and other places as potentially being a problem or "bad", or "better" for the bees:

    Hive type
    cell sizes
    entrance sizes and locations
    Ventilation
    Sugar
    Corn Syrup
    Smoke
    packages
    swarm control
    drone removal
    colony density
    essential oils
    chemical treatments for mites
    antibiotics
    pollen substitute
    wintering approaches

    It seems that everything - like, E V E R Y T H I N G. Is debated, and nothing is agreed upon.

    So when, after treating for mites over my first couple of winters, I took out my first drone brood last spring and found it just teeming with mites, I just through my hands up. I sat down with that drone comb in the sun and I thought what - after all this study do I KNOW? Not much. But here's the list:

    *After probably 50 million years (ish) on earth, the bees are here. There are bees in my yard, right outside.
    No human is able to claim complete understanding of them and conclusively demonstrate that they do.
    After a couple of decades of throwing everything we have at them, the Varroa mites appear stronger and more common than ever.
    A good number of people claim to be maintaining healthy bees without any consistent management strategy which is common to all.
    There appears to be no consistent or clear evidence that people who don't treat are losing any greater percentage of their bees than people who do.
    People who do treat seem just as worried about their bees making it through the winter as people who don't.

    Having seen these things from my perspective, I've just decided to do my best to minimize my 'messing' with the bees. I'll try to stay out of their way as much as possible, for I can see absolutely no conclusive evidence that anything human kind is doing is correct - or incorrect. It's one giant mass of debating contradictory conclusions.

    Too many mixed messages when it comes to treating for mites. So I'm not doing it, and I will see if there's any difference.

    Adam

  6. #166
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgi View Post
    In every case food was not an issue, plenty of sealed honey and sugar syrup within two inches of the edge of the clusters, cells in the center of the cluster stuffed with bees head first.

    John
    hmmm. i see that you in michigan. i guess it's possible it got to cold for them to move the 2", although last winter was more mild than most.

    makes me wonder though about a gut parasite in those.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #167
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,079

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by libhart View Post
    head-down in empty cells and give the impression of starving
    I would just like to point out that bees are always head down in empty cells when they are clustering. That's how it's done.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  8. #168
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Knox Co, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    833

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Foster Collins View Post
    I'm not treating this year, for the simple fact that I have - over the last few years - heard from too many very intelligent and experienced people, who are contradicting one another.
    Adam,

    I'm on the opposite side of the coin as you. I haven't treated. I have had colonies overwinter fine and I have had strong colonies die earlier in the winter.

    Mites are a problem.

    I'm planning on doing an OA dribble this year. There is probably a 50/50 chance I will do it.

    I'm beginning to think the biggest problem is not having hives as strong as possible. I'm trying to learn ot be a better beekeeper. I think that will improve my a number things, including how my colonies overwinter.

    I think it is more important to look at overall colony health and strength, and then decide what you choose to do to improve your colonies. You may decide to requeen. You may decide to change equipment. You may decide to feed. You may decide to do nothing.

    I don't think we can take anyone's recipe for beekeeping and follow it and be successful. There is more to beekeeping than just putting the correct pieces together. We need to learn to be beekeepers.

    Tom

  9. #169
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,864

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    squarepeg,

    These die outs didn't happen last winter, it was about three winters ago I think, last winter was not bad at all up here. John

  10. #170
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,531

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    understood john. maybe too cold for the cluster to move then if it stayed really cold too long. or maybe
    they got on some brood and wouldn't move.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #171
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,531

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by TWall View Post
    I don't think we can take anyone's recipe for beekeeping and follow it and be successful. There is more to beekeeping than just putting the correct pieces together. We need to learn to be beekeepers.
    tom, excellent point.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #172
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,498

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    ace, is it really true that each and every form of treatment leaves harmful residues in the equipment?
    If you are talking chemical treatments I will say yes. If you are talking about culling drones then I say no. If you chemically treat and then try not treating for a while then you can say you are practicing treatment free but your hive isn't treatment free so in the sense of a scientific experiment you can't conclude that treatment free doesn't work if your colonies should die.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  13. #173
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    o.k.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #174
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I find it hard to believe that a person couldn't use some of the current treatments and still be able to phase into being TF, still using existing equipment.
    It is bee keeping. You can do anything you want. But are you going to preach from then on your losses are due to not treating when you put colonies in contaminated hives?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  15. #175
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,442

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Again Ace, you will need to define "contaminated." Right now, I'm contaminated with asbestos because I just pulled up some old vinyl flooring in our kitchen. It won't have any measurable impact on me continuing to live my life.
    Regards, Barry

  16. #176
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Again Ace, you will need to define "contaminated."
    I am pretty sure that is already defined. A hive that is treated with chemicals will be contaminated to a measurable degree verses one that has not.

    It won't have any measurable impact on me continuing to live my life.
    It depends on how you pulled up the floor as to whether you contaminated the air while you were working. It could have serious impact and it is non reversible.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  17. #177
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,442

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    I am pretty sure that is already defined. A hive that is treated with chemicals will be contaminated to a measurable degree verses one that has not.
    You going to keep evading the question? "to a measurable degree", who's measuring and to what degree?

    It depends on how you pulled up the floor as to whether you contaminated the air while you were working. It could have serious impact and it is non reversible.
    Again, "depends", yes it depends on what treatment is used in a hive and whether or not it has any significant impact on anything in order to go treatment free.

    In fact, people have been living in this 'treated' house (asbestos in the felt under the siding, in the siding, in the flooring, lead in the paint) since 1888 and you'd be hard pressed to prove that they haven't lived a healthy life in spite of the physical structure.
    Last edited by Barry; 11-11-2012 at 01:28 PM.
    Regards, Barry

  18. #178
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,498

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Again, "depends", yes it depends on what treatment is used in a hive and whether or not it has any significant impact on anything in order to go treatment free.
    Have it your way Barry, I think this is precisely what Sergey was speaking of in the thread "is beekeeping broke" with your line of reasoning. If you are doing and experiment you don't contaminate the data and then arrive at a conclusion. It makes the experiment meaningless.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #179
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,442

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    This isn't about "scientific experiments." You brought this into the discussion to try and give your statement more factual grounds.

    "I don't believe it to be so because it means wiping out all your equipment and starting over from scratch."

    You will first have to prove that all chemicals leave residues in the hive that significantly impact the ability to go treatment free with said equipment.
    Regards, Barry

  20. #180
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,996

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Let's use a direct example, Formic Acid is used as a treatment. FA evaporates easily and is applied in such a way that as it evaporates the vapor permeates the whole hive. It condenses onto everything including combs, bees, and mites, hopefully in enough concentration to kill the mites but not the bees. Over the next day or so most of it re-evaporates and leaves the hive, and over the next few weeks whatever still may be there continues to evaporate until levels of FA in that hive have returned to the same very small levels that would be there naturally.

    So Ace. If you bought a hive that had been treated with Formic Acid 6 months ago, how would chemical contamination prevent you attempting chemical free beekeeping?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

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