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  1. #41
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    DFW area, TX, USA
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    955

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Thanks Ramona. For the computer illiterates like me a Link would make life easier. Also, isn't it a Rule when quoting an outside source? But thanks, I'll write down the first sentence and websearch it.
    Try this link Mark.
    Lee Burough
    I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up :)

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    24,455

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Thanks Lee.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    Posts
    5,013

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    ...paralyzed by the dogma ... forever damns you ... manipulative and self serving...
    Wow, you made it worse. Is this your best case?

    I've always been of the opinion that insulting people is not the best path to bring them over to your point of view.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,043

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Not personally, but I do find that when one goes cold turkey ones bees are very likely to up and die. Hence the treadmill.
    in fairness to solomon, i took this response to mean his use of 'treadmill' was not intended to imply that a single or limited use of a treatment would result in being locked in to using them forever. solomon, please correct me if i am misinterpreting.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    Posts
    5,013

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Squarepeg, in some cases I do mean that, depending on the chemical. Not every item of course, but my case is for total non-treatment. The bees can handle (should handle) disease by themselves. The reason many can't is because the process of selection has not been allowed to take its natural course. Beekeepers are keeping weak bees unable to deal with disease because they have made them that way out of fear that the bees would die.

    "One often finds his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it." - Master Oogway
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,422

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I think we are talking about the danger of the beekeeper falling off the wagon because of his psychological treatment dependancy. That would seem to say that you must not ever treat or it will destroy your resolve and you will be forever damned...,
    No, it has nothing to do with psychological dependency. If the way you deal with problems in the hive is with a treatment, you will forever be treating...because of the biological certainty that there will be some problem that can be "helped" with a treatment. If you want to be treatment-free, you either have to resist the impulse to treat, or you have to wait until the bees (as a population) achieve resistance to their pests and the pests have stopped evolving (read: never).
    Now if there is a case for developing chemical dependency or functional alteration upon the part of the bee I can buy into that
    I have given two examples..with no comments. We can certainly add antibiotic resistance of foulbrood to the treadmill...and even show how its use can effect the biodiversity of the gut flora of the honeybees...and that this reduced diversity is heritable.

    http://mbio.asm.org/content/3/6/e00377-12.full
    We found that 50 years of using antibiotics in beekeeping in the United States has resulted in extensive tetracycline resistance in the gut microbiota. These bacteria, which form a distinctive community present in healthy honeybees worldwide, may function in protecting bees from disease and in providing nutrition. In countries that do not use antibiotics in beekeeping, bee gut bacteria contained far fewer resistance genes. The tetracycline resistance that we observed in American samples reflects the capture of mobile resistance genes closely related to those known from human pathogens and agricultural sites. Thus, long-term treatment to control a specific pathogen resulted in the accumulation of a stockpile of resistance capabilities in the microbiota of a healthy gut. This stockpile can, in turn, provide a source of resistance genes for pathogens themselves. The use of novel antibiotics in beekeeping may disrupt bee health, adding to the threats faced by these pollinators.
    Footnotes

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,422

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    I didn't provide a link to the post on the other bee forum because I don't believe the site owner here allows it.

    deknow

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,422

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    I'll add the following, also from the study linked above....can anyone guess who the beekeeper in Southern Arizona is?
    The variation in tetracycline resistance determinants observed among American honeybee colonies may reflect different recent histories of oxytetracycline treatment for individual colonies. Most of our samples had unknown histories of antibiotic treatment, largely due to their origin from mixing other colonies or from commercial bee packages. To determine whether resistance loci decline when antibiotic exposure is terminated, we obtained samples from four managed colonies in southern Arizona that were unusual in having not been treated directly or mixed with outside bees for over 25 years and samples from long-established feral colonies in Utah, also expected to have no recent exposure. These samples showed markedly lower copy numbers of resistance loci compared to other American samples (Fig. 2). The FL, MD, and AZ (USDA) colonies, which had no antibiotic treatment for at least 2 years prior to sampling, showed intermediate levels of resistance loci. The highest frequencies were observed for colonies in CT and WA established from package bees purchased from commercial bee suppliers 0 to 12 months before sampling.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    24,455

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I didn't provide a link to the post on the other bee forum because I don't believe the site owner here allows it.

    deknow
    Oh, okay, thanks.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,183

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    What is frowned on is simply a link to another site/content. The goal, as much as possible, is to include the content within your post along with a link so members don't have to go looking for it.
    Regards, Barry

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C., Canada
    Posts
    39

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Usually no treatment beekeeping is associated with "natural" (Dee Lusby, Michael Bush) beekeeping which involves regression to small cell. Natural beekeepers will say their bees do not need treatment because they are naturally smaller (like the smaller apis cerana and africanized bee which similarly cope with varroa). Dee says it's the smaller segments between the body parts. I think it may also have to do with them being survivor stock (hygienic) which implies some colonies will die. Philosophically I agree with the "naturalists" but the pragmatist in me needs visible proof and the lack of comprehensive, scientific studies verifying no treatment, small cell beekeeping leaves me wondering why there is not more. So for now letting colonies die and passing pests and viruses on to other colonies is not an option. At this point I am I think classified "organic" (organic treatment). Breeding hygienic, survivor stock is a good start.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    good post, thanks.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  13. #53
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    2,441

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    I think it's a combination of things. Beeks got bees to where they wanted them in terms of production, brood build up, calmness etc... Now in order to keep these strains they need to be treated for the most part to keep mites in check. Introgressing VSH/survivor genes into the lines is easy, but probably with some linkage drag in terms of traits and level of production people have come to expect. Not to say it's always true, but a lot of members have posted their survivor stock lacking in terms of production, not always the case but enough to make note of it and it's totally not unexpected. Working in ag, many resistance traits are out there but many also come with linkage drag and are un-usable.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C., Canada
    Posts
    39

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Good point but speaking from the perspective of a non-commercial, backyard beekeeper I gladly accept reduced production (linkage drag) in favour of bees demonstrating hygienic, survivor stock traits.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Tsawwassen, BC, Canada
    Posts
    228

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    As a new beekeeper this year, I have been seriously taken aback by the quarreling and mean spirited exchanges that seem very common in beekeeping club meetings and online discussions. We are all in the same pickle with our bees, but a house divided cannot stand. And will not attract the next generation of beekeepers.

    As a new beekeeper, and my Beekeeping 101 teacher taught us to use chemicals preventively, I have already decided that:
    1. Honeybees are at serious risk of extinction, thanks to mites and nosema.
    2. Treating with anything drives resistance to that thing.
    3. Going treatment free cold turkey with non-resistant strains of bees is a good way to lose all your bees.
    4. I am going to have to balance off treatment as needed vs. restocking my apiary with resistant strains of bees and using a suite of IPM techniques while I get on my feet. And I am just a hobby beekeeper!!
    5. Getting treatment free is going to be a process, one requiring patience and thought.
    6. During that process, I will be open to gathering information from all kinds of sources, and will evaluate as I go and learn.
    7. The most important beekeeping skill of all may be communication.

    Finally, I would really like to see less defensive, knee jerk behaviour from beekeepers, less division, and more collegial, civil, and open minded exchanges of ideas. It strikes me that all the pain beekeepers of all stripes have experienced through the last decade or two are starting to yield fruit. It would be a shame to fracture the beekeeping world just as it finds some solid ground.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C., Canada
    Posts
    39

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    I'm in absolute agreement. The only way to solve a problem is through open exchange of ideas, information and viewpoints. I believe the sign of a truly intelligent person is someone cognisant of their own imperfection and always open to the possibility of learning. Often I have encountered intolerant "natural" beekeepers who akin to religious fundamentalists preach beekeeping dogma based on unyielding faith rather than facts. In my experience angry intolerance accomplishes nothing.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    2,441

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    People wanna stick with their methods, I have no issue with that. I just try to to get people to think outisde their methods or see it from a different perspective. Treatment, treatment free, organic, I think our goals are all the same in the end. People just need to educate themselves and not be so opinionated. Kind of like the Bayer or GMO stuff that gets thrown around all too often, if you don't understand the science, laws, or have any real facts on the issue than better to keep your mouth closed and not regurgitate some idealized rant from either of the exteme ends of the arugment which are typically based off nothing but pure rhetoric.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    Posts
    5,013

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by WesternWilson View Post
    1. Honeybees are at serious risk of extinction, thanks to mites and nosema.
    No. Simply false.


    Quote Originally Posted by WesternWilson View Post
    2. Treating with anything drives resistance to that thing.
    Yes!


    Quote Originally Posted by WesternWilson View Post
    3. Going treatment free cold turkey with non-resistant strains of bees is a good way to lose all your bees.
    Yes, but only if you have few to begin with.


    Quote Originally Posted by WesternWilson View Post
    4. I am going to have to balance off treatment as needed vs. restocking my apiary with resistant strains of bees and using a suite of IPM techniques while I get on my feet. And I am just a hobby beekeeper!!
    That is no balance.


    Quote Originally Posted by WesternWilson View Post
    5. Getting treatment free is going to be a process, one requiring patience and thought.
    Yes!


    Quote Originally Posted by WesternWilson View Post
    6. During that process, I will be open to gathering information from all kinds of sources, and will evaluate as I go and learn.
    Yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by WesternWilson View Post
    7. The most important beekeeping skill of all may be communication.
    No. The more you communicate with other beekeepers, the more conflicting information you will receive.


    Quote Originally Posted by WesternWilson View Post
    It strikes me that all the pain beekeepers of all stripes have experienced through the last decade or two are starting to yield fruit. It would be a shame to fracture the beekeeping world just as it finds some solid ground.
    You're seeing this from the wrong perspective. The fracture is closing as treatment free beekeepers are more and more vindicated as their practices prove effective year after new year. We were getting the same questions and criticisms ten years ago, though perhaps we were taken less seriously then. This is not new. Treatment-free beekeeping is not new. It's at least 25 years old. Dee Lusby did it first. Michael Bush has been doing it for a dozen years or more. I've been almost ten now. We have not just showed up, we are still here!
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Clackamas Oregon
    Posts
    632

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Good post Western! A lot of times the back and forth causes me to simply skim the post to see if it is long winded or aggressive. It is easy to skip to the next post. I do have to say that when I got bees from a commercial operator he told me right up front that “you don’t treat these bees I am selling you they are going to die”. I found that to be true. I also found that I went to buy some treatment and the cost knocked me down! I let them bees slide about as hard as I could before I opened up my wallet and salvaged those two hives. I will squeeze two nickels until it turns into a quarter and don’t add anything that does not show a real need. I make my own frame, that is a cheap SOB.
    “Why do we fall, sir? So that we might learn to pick ourselves up” Alfred Pennyworth Batman Begins (2005)

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,043

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    western, that sounds like perfect balance to me.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

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