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  1. #21
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    Apr 2009
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    Stilwell, KS
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by seyc View Post
    I am treatment free because I have never found a reason to treat.

    I have never seen a mite in/around/near my bees. And yes, I do test. I also do not even know what a SHB looks like. The only things I have seen in my hives, other than bees is: a spider last week, and an earwig, also last week.
    Give it some time. I went for a year-and-a-half before I found mites.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  2. #22
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    I have also experienced obtaining a treated hive, not treating it, and it promptly dying. That was my father's short foray into beekeeping. He's done it twice now. I don't recommend it.
    ouch. sounds like your dad should have bought bees from you instead.

    so in a case like this, you are not recommending stopping treatments cold turkey, but rather agressively splitting the hive and introducing new genetics?

    i do respect anyone's desire not to use treatments, but in a case like this, would it not make sense to knock down the mite load with a soft treatment prior to making the splits? (with the long term goal of avoiding the 'treadmill').

    (assuming vaorra is the problem)
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,424

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    ...this was just posted on "another forum"....talk about a treadmill.
    At the Bee conference in Tampa, FL this past week, Dr Diana Sammataro gave 3 different talks on mites. One of her studies is on: what effect does what we feed our bees have on the mites in the hive. She isolated the study into 3 groups. The first group was allowed to feed in the wild, the second were fed pollen that was collected and sold to beeks and the third were fed pollen substitutes. To control the bee’s source of food, she had the second 2 groups of hives in tents. She found it is hard to keeps them alive for any great length of time in tents. All three groups had the queens in laying cages (square cage over the comb) to control the day the eggs were laid and only in the control area. On the 8th day (they day before they are capped) they were placed in hives that were heavy in mites. Each mite hive had 1 frame from each group. After they were capped the frames were removed and just before the bees hatched they were opened and the mites were counted. She just recently got the results from her first try. The natural fed bees had an average of about 43 mites on the worker brood, the pollen had an average of around 53 mites on worker brood (no drones allowed in the test cases) but the pollen substitute averaged around 273 mites on the worker brood.
    As you can imagine, this was a total surprise. She showed pictures of the results. The bees from the substitute were covered with mites. She did note that these same bees were on average heaver that the other bees.
    Diana is still working on this to determine what is happening with this situation.
    Jim

  4. #24
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,424

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    I think the analogy of drinking is pretty apt here.

    If you have a drinking problem, and you decide that you want to stop drinking, there are lots of things to consider....how are you going to stop? What are you going to do when you feel the urge to drink? How are you going to handle emotionally tough situations without taking a drink?

    Well, in the end, if one wants to quit drinking, at some point they have to take their last drink...and not take another one. This doesn't mean that you won't be in a situation where you want a drink...where you think (in the moment) that a drink might help. ...it is these tough situations where the battle is ultimately won or lost, as there is always going to be something tough to deal with that seems to demand a drink.

    The same is true of beekeeping. There will always be some challenge that seems to demand treatment. If you want to treat in such a situation, that is your own business (as long as you are honest about it)...but I think it is impossible to be "treatment-free" this way....parasites and disease are always evolving and changing....there will always be a challenge which would seem to be addressed by a treatment....but this is the same slippery slope of "this has been a tough day, I think I need one drink to get through it".

    As long as treatments are the "back up plan", they will always be used...if not this year, then next year.

    The idea that there are things called "soft treatments" and that they are somehow warm and fuzzzy is flawed in the extreme. The soft treatments (essential oils, organic acids) are more destructive to the microflora of the bees...and most definitely directly to the bees directly as well....they are substances that are less harmful to humans, but they are not "soft", and they are not "natural". Anyone that is concerned about fungicides affecting their bees (and that should be all beekeepers), should consider that thymol is a really strong antifungal agent.

    The only thing "soft" about the soft treatments is the soft sell used to make beekeepers believe they are being "natural" or "organic" or "kind to the bees".

    deknow

  5. #25
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    Apr 2009
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    Stilwell, KS
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Not personally, but I do find that when one goes cold turkey ones bees are very likely to up and die. Hence the treadmill.
    Interesting conclusion supported by how many data points?:

    I have also experienced obtaining a treated hive, not treating it, and it promptly dying. That was my father's short foray into beekeeping. He's done it twice now. I don't recommend it.
    .
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  6. #26
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    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
    Posts
    2,430

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    @deknow - agree with you regarding reality of "soft" treatments. Here in Maine our state apiarist tells us that the mites have developed resistance to the "hard" treatments and so the so called "soft" treatments are what remain as effective. People need to remember that they are still treatments, and while many of them are synthetic recreations of naturally occurring substances, there is nothing natural about using them in a bee hive. That said, I have some colonies that get treated, and some that don't. The hard part for me is keeping brood frames & boxes sorted out so that the TF bees don't inadvertently get treated.

    Some areas are easier to do TF beekeeping than others. Thus far my TF bees have not made much honey and many have died. I'll be very interested to see what I'm left with following winter.

  7. #27
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    Dec 2002
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    Fayetteville, Arkansas
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    5,021

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    ouch. sounds like your dad should have bought bees from you instead.
    Well, you know how it is. Some fellers, you can't tell 'em nothin', especially if they have changed your diapers.


    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    so in a case like this, you are not recommending stopping treatments cold turkey, but rather agressively splitting the hive and introducing new genetics?
    There's no turkey like cold turkey. It has to be done at some point. Cut it off and split like mad, bring in queens, however you want to do it. Dean reports a good case for not feeding pollen substitutes. I do my splitting and queen rearing without feeding at all. I don't want bees efficient at moving syrup into comb, I want bees efficient at moving nectar into comb.


    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    would it not make sense to knock down the mite load with a soft treatment prior to making the splits?
    I don't see how it would help. You'll never get them all, and the split should do some of the work anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...this was just posted on "another forum"....talk about a treadmill.
    Could you give me a link in a PM? This is great stuff. I have been recommending against using this stuff for years.


    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    The idea that there are things called "soft treatments" and that they are somehow warm and fuzzzy is flawed in the extreme. The soft treatments (essential oils, organic acids) are more destructive to the microflora of the bees...and most definitely directly to the bees directly as well....they are substances that are less harmful to humans, but they are not "soft", and they are not "natural". Anyone that is concerned about fungicides affecting their bees (and that should be all beekeepers), should consider that thymol is a really strong antifungal agent.
    Add to that, the national beekeeping survey thing (link in TFB) shows that by and large they don't work. Most treatments don't work. The best ones will drop your losses 10%. No sure thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Dewey View Post
    Thus far my TF bees have not made much honey and many have died. I'll be very interested to see what I'm left with following winter.
    How long has this been going on and under what conditions did you start?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma dr. Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    561

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    I think we are talking about the danger of the beekeeper falling off the wagon because of his psychological treatment dependancy. That would seem to say that you must not ever treat or it will destroy your resolve and you will be forever damned. Carnal knowledge can never be shed. That could be true but the bees do not have such emotional connection. That is a toothless bogeyman, lol!

    Now if there is a case for developing chemical dependency or functional alteration upon the part of the bee I can buy into that; bio-accumulation in brood comb with the likes of coumophos could have subtle and ongoing effects on the bees. I think there is a fair bit of evidence to support that. Most certainly it is subject to developing resistance as well. That is a bad treatment and there are others like it, but that does not make treatment in itself all bad (unless from the angle of my first paragraph).

    I think there are treatments that physically home in on anatomical vulnerabilities of mites for instance that have little effect on bees and do little more than temporarily altering the ph of the comb surfaces. A lesser evil perhaps than the mite would otherwise inflict on the hive. I think that would be a good treatment and I cannot see it creating any crippling dependency like being stuck on a treadmill. I think we should be very, very cautious about any treatment but I think it is irrational to avoid any and all as a mantra.

    I will use a personal experience to create an analogy for treatment. I was instructing a course on heavy equipment operation for a bunch of rather raggedy ath and bob tailed men and came down with persistant jock itch from the foam seats. Medicated powder every nite curatively and every morning profilactically gave me great relief. Now I could have just continued to scratch if I were so inclined but this seemed a good treatment.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    24,461

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    in post #21, in the thread 'm bush on treatment-free', in the tfb forum, solomon parker writes:

    "I do not want a first year beekeeper to start any way but treatment-free. Once on the treadmill, there's no good way to get off."

    do any of you feel like you are stuck on a treadmill and can't get off?
    I guess I don't look at it that way, but, maybe like an addict, the first step is recognizing the existence of a problem.

    Amongst some of my Commercial Beekeeping friends we oft times talk about how it seems like we spend a lot more time nowadays throwing medications/treatments on our hives to keep as many as possible alive and populous, which was much much less so 30 years ago. Presently we are almost Honeybee Veternarians(sp?).

    What one does is determined by what one's goals are.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    Posts
    5,021

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I think we should be very, very cautious about any treatment but I think it is irrational to avoid any and all as a mantra.
    I was with you until this. Your really think it is irrational? That's the kind of argument you want to make against an opposing position? Against my position? That's a bit much.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    24,461

    Default Re: I'll bite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lburou View Post

    Randy Oliver warns about the Beekeeping Taliban. I want to remain open minded and at the same time help beginners when they ask, even guide them some, but let them sink or swim on their own decisions.

    No offense to anyone intended with these statements, I know its a hot topic.
    This is as it always has been. One takes in knowledge and advice and decides which is best. I have friends who used to say something like "Why didn't you do it like I told you to?" Well, it wasn't the way I wanted to do it, but thanks for the advice. Sometimes I have to learn for myself. Maybe I should have done it your way. But in the end I have to do things my way, for good or ill. At least for me, it has ever been thus.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  12. #32
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...this was just posted on "another forum"....talk about a treadmill.
    Please supply a link to the origin of this. Thanks.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Leominster, MA USA
    Posts
    163

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Please supply a link to the origin of this. Thanks.
    I googled the first part of the first sentence of the quote mentioned above by Deknow and got the link immediately. Google is all powerful and knowing...

    Ramona

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    24,461

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Thanks Ramona. For the computer illiterates like me a Link would make life easier. Also, isn't it a Rule when quoting an outside source? But thanks, I'll write down the first sentence and websearch it.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    Posts
    5,021

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    I just recognized the name, Dr. Sammataro. I saw one of her presentations at The Big Bee Buzz in Tusla OK this spring.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
    Posts
    2,430

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    How long has this been going on and under what conditions did you start?
    TF Yard established 5/10 with 8 Italian Packages. Requeened 6/10 with Russians. 9/10 inspected by State of Maine - several hives with high Nosema Counts (lab test done) and several hives with PMS (lots of virus, including dwv, Sac Brood)

    Inspected again 10/12. 1 Hive and 1 Nuc expected to over winter. Nuc is headed by a purchased Russian Queen. Nucs made up with Queen Cells (swarm) have not thrived.

    This yard has not produced any surplus honey since it was established and has required feeding each fall (sugar water)

    No treatments have been made for Nosema and/or Varroa.

    The yard is on an organic farm, within flying distance of a National Park. Plenty of forage.

    Another yard with TF Russians on another farm established in 2011 (6 colonies) made 1 shallow of summer honey, and the same inspector guesses 1 hive will be alive next Spring there. That one is from a split made up this year using a swarm cell queen open mated with whatever is nearby. Same issues (Varroa).

    Both farms are about 1.5 hours away from where I live. They were much closer when first established, but then I moved. Hives likely to survive the winter have been wrapped.

  17. #37

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I'll write down the first sentence and websearch it.
    Just don’t forget Mark…Google is watching! After the search be prepared to find yourself inundated by related ads.

    At the Bee conference in Tampa, FL this past week, Dr Diana Sammataro gave 3 different talks on mites.

    Tampa, FL – vacations, air travel to, real estate
    Sammataro – sumo wrestling tickets, vacations to Sumatra
    mites – Raid pest control products, mitre saws


    And who knows what else.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    Posts
    5,021

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Dewey View Post
    Requeened 6/10 with Russians.
    Why requeen so soon?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  19. #39
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    Aug 2005
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    Washington County, Maine
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    2,430

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Why requeen so soon?
    The Packages were Italian and I wanted Russians because of their genetic "magic." Russian packages (and nucs) were not available.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma dr. Ontario, Canada
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    561

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    I was with you until this. Your really think it is irrational? That's the kind of argument you want to make against an opposing position? Against my position? That's a bit much.
    Not at all! I'm not counting points. Be cautious for sure but not paralyzed by the dogma that treatment of any sort forever damns you. That broad brush painting to support ones opinion is manipulative and self serving in my estimation. Overstating destroys credibility.

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