Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

"treatment treadmill"

60K views 241 replies 41 participants last post by  Joel 
#1 ·
in post #21, in the thread 'm bush on treatment-free', in the tfb forum, solomon parker writes:

"I do not want a first year beekeeper to start any way but treatment-free. Once on the treadmill, there's no good way to get off."

do any of you feel like you are stuck on a treadmill and can't get off?
 
#53 ·
I think it's a combination of things. Beeks got bees to where they wanted them in terms of production, brood build up, calmness etc... Now in order to keep these strains they need to be treated for the most part to keep mites in check. Introgressing VSH/survivor genes into the lines is easy, but probably with some linkage drag in terms of traits and level of production people have come to expect. Not to say it's always true, but a lot of members have posted their survivor stock lacking in terms of production, not always the case but enough to make note of it and it's totally not unexpected. Working in ag, many resistance traits are out there but many also come with linkage drag and are un-usable.
 
#55 ·
As a new beekeeper this year, I have been seriously taken aback by the quarreling and mean spirited exchanges that seem very common in beekeeping club meetings and online discussions. We are all in the same pickle with our bees, but a house divided cannot stand. And will not attract the next generation of beekeepers.

As a new beekeeper, and my Beekeeping 101 teacher taught us to use chemicals preventively, I have already decided that:
1. Honeybees are at serious risk of extinction, thanks to mites and nosema.
2. Treating with anything drives resistance to that thing.
3. Going treatment free cold turkey with non-resistant strains of bees is a good way to lose all your bees.
4. I am going to have to balance off treatment as needed vs. restocking my apiary with resistant strains of bees and using a suite of IPM techniques while I get on my feet. And I am just a hobby beekeeper!!
5. Getting treatment free is going to be a process, one requiring patience and thought.
6. During that process, I will be open to gathering information from all kinds of sources, and will evaluate as I go and learn.
7. The most important beekeeping skill of all may be communication.

Finally, I would really like to see less defensive, knee jerk behaviour from beekeepers, less division, and more collegial, civil, and open minded exchanges of ideas. It strikes me that all the pain beekeepers of all stripes have experienced through the last decade or two are starting to yield fruit. It would be a shame to fracture the beekeeping world just as it finds some solid ground.
 
#58 ·
1. Honeybees are at serious risk of extinction, thanks to mites and nosema.
No. Simply false.


2. Treating with anything drives resistance to that thing.
Yes!


3. Going treatment free cold turkey with non-resistant strains of bees is a good way to lose all your bees.
Yes, but only if you have few to begin with.


4. I am going to have to balance off treatment as needed vs. restocking my apiary with resistant strains of bees and using a suite of IPM techniques while I get on my feet. And I am just a hobby beekeeper!!
That is no balance.


5. Getting treatment free is going to be a process, one requiring patience and thought.
Yes!


6. During that process, I will be open to gathering information from all kinds of sources, and will evaluate as I go and learn.
Yes.


7. The most important beekeeping skill of all may be communication.
No. The more you communicate with other beekeepers, the more conflicting information you will receive.


It strikes me that all the pain beekeepers of all stripes have experienced through the last decade or two are starting to yield fruit. It would be a shame to fracture the beekeeping world just as it finds some solid ground.
You're seeing this from the wrong perspective. The fracture is closing as treatment free beekeepers are more and more vindicated as their practices prove effective year after new year. We were getting the same questions and criticisms ten years ago, though perhaps we were taken less seriously then. This is not new. Treatment-free beekeeping is not new. It's at least 25 years old. Dee Lusby did it first. Michael Bush has been doing it for a dozen years or more. I've been almost ten now. We have not just showed up, we are still here!
 
#56 ·
I'm in absolute agreement. The only way to solve a problem is through open exchange of ideas, information and viewpoints. I believe the sign of a truly intelligent person is someone cognisant of their own imperfection and always open to the possibility of learning. Often I have encountered intolerant "natural" beekeepers who akin to religious fundamentalists preach beekeeping dogma based on unyielding faith rather than facts. In my experience angry intolerance accomplishes nothing.
 
#57 ·
People wanna stick with their methods, I have no issue with that. I just try to to get people to think outisde their methods or see it from a different perspective. Treatment, treatment free, organic, I think our goals are all the same in the end. People just need to educate themselves and not be so opinionated. Kind of like the Bayer or GMO stuff that gets thrown around all too often, if you don't understand the science, laws, or have any real facts on the issue than better to keep your mouth closed and not regurgitate some idealized rant from either of the exteme ends of the arugment which are typically based off nothing but pure rhetoric.
 
#59 ·
Good post Western! A lot of times the back and forth causes me to simply skim the post to see if it is long winded or aggressive. It is easy to skip to the next post. I do have to say that when I got bees from a commercial operator he told me right up front that “you don’t treat these bees I am selling you they are going to die”. I found that to be true. I also found that I went to buy some treatment and the cost knocked me down! I let them bees slide about as hard as I could before I opened up my wallet and salvaged those two hives. I will squeeze two nickels until it turns into a quarter and don’t add anything that does not show a real need. I make my own frame, that is a cheap SOB.
 
#61 ·
Thankyou Minz!

BTW, Solomon is right about letting nature take its course with the bees....as long as you have lots of hives and expect at least some to make it through the winter and the mites. But I have ONE hive this winter. And am unlikely to ever have more than 10-20. I am not in a position to run on from survivors at this point, although that is certainly my aim, and I am on the hunt for hardier bees.

I was at a local beekeeping meeting a few days ago and the chapter president mentioned that here in Canada, the vast majority (I believe it was somewhere around 95%, am checking on that) of beekeepers have 5 hives or less. And in this country, the availability of treatment free bees is very limited, thanks to the prohibition against cross border bee and queen shipping.

The pressure of small holding beekeepers to treat so as not to lose all their bees is overwhelming. Ironically that is similar to the pressure on big operators to treat to stay profitable. We need to gather and use all the good information we can to learn to do chemical/treatment free beekeeping while we shepherd our small, ever improving flocks ever onward.

This is part of why I am so affronted by the endless dogmatic and nasty arguing in club meetings and forums...it doesn't speak to me, and it doesn't help me, nor I would think the majority of beekeepers, or even new beekeepers.
 
#62 ·
Bigger numbers will not nessecarily save you.

There is a remote part of my country where varroa only got to 3 years ago. I have a friend there who read a lot of treatment free stuff and decided that when varroa got to his area, he was not going to treat. So in preperation he converted 50 of his hives to small cell, did a lot of research and even went to America and attended a Dee Lusby conference plus spent a week or two actually working with Dee on her own bees.

About a couple of years after varroa got to his area he told me of the 50 hives, only 5 where still alive. He was not deterred though, these would be the 5 "survivors" he would breed from. Maybe 6 months later I talked to him again, he had lost every single one.

The standard reasons given when TF beekeepers lose hive did not apply as there is nothing wrong with his beekeeping, and he was not taking bees off a "Treatment Treadmill" the hives had never been treated.

What he did though was not make any increase, as it was not his habit, prior to varroa he rarely lost a hive and did not make much splits or increase.
 
#64 ·
This is second hand knowledge so take it for what it's worth.....

I was talking with a beekeeper who has several hundred hives, treatment free. He claims to have only had a 5% loss last winter, which is way better than average around here. I asked him what he did. He said decades ago he started with packages, but never bought a queen since then. If a hive was faltering, he let it falter and he only did splits from his very best hives. If I understand him, he practiced animal husbandry with his hives to get the best bees by weeding out the weak and keeping the strong.

Since the six hives in my yard have been treatment free this year, it'll be interesting to see how they do this winter.
 
#65 ·
This post started with a loaded question,therefore it was bound to get explosive answers...I am not pro treatment ,but maybe a 75-100 dollar hive isn't much to some,but if that were a sick 1200 dollar cow would you give her drugs or just wait and see if it comes out of it.
 
#86 ·
There is a big difference. If a hive dies I still have everything I paid for. All the boxes, lids, stands, and if I get to it before the wax moths I've got foundation or drawn frames. If a cow dies I don't know where you can go find free wild cows.

I've gotten my two hives from cutouts this year. Not only were the bees no charge to me, I got paid for getting them and their wild drawn comb.

I certainly don't see any reason to spend (waste) money on treatments of any kind. If these bees die I'll get paid to collect more bees next spring. I also get to incentivize ($50 goes to him) my 12 year old son to turn off the X-Box and come do cutouts with me. It's good money for a 12 year old, gets him outside, teaches him something about nature, and lets me spend time talking with him.
 
#69 ·
Sorry gentlemen, I do heartily disagree. Friction is a waste of energy, it just creates drag in the system.

There is no excuse for incivility or anger in a discussion of how to get our bees to a condition where they can handle diseases and pests with little or no intervention, certainly we all want to get to a place where at least the inteventions/helps we apply are at least non-toxic. Barring having bees that laugh at mites and viruses, I would love to be able to apply remedies that do not end up in my wax and honey, love to be able to eliminate mites and disease with no side effects.

Meanwhile, there is no reason we cannot compare notes and try out new strategies without rancour. Disagreement does not have to disagreeable, and taking alternate routes does not preclude reaching the same destination.
 
#72 ·
There is no excuse for incivility or anger in a discussion of how to get our bees to a condition where they can handle diseases and pests with little or no intervention
I heartily agree with you about incivility. That's not what I was talking about. A little righteous anger on the other hand can be useful from time to time.
 
#70 ·
aw come on western, where's the fun in that? :)

just kidding, but really, no kidding. surely you have seen by now that beekeepers tend to be an opinionated bunch.

your aspiration is worthy, but not reallistically attainable.

humans are almost as interesting as bees, embrace it for what it is and enjoy.
 
#73 ·
Regarding the "Treatment Treadmill" theory, the idea being proposed by some, is that once you are on the "Treatment Treadmill", you can never get off.

Can't really see that myself. Why can't you get off? It doesn't make sense because most people starting in bees start with bees that are treated, there just aren't many non treated bees for sale. I constantly see people complaining that they cannot get any. So, what's the difference wether they were bought treated, or you treated them yourself? None, far as I can see.

What I can see, is that using a product such as apistan that leaves permanent residue in the hive, could make it difficult to go treatment free later. But using a treatment such as oxalic acid that leaves no permanent residue in the hive, should have no effect later if somebody attempts to go treatment free later. So a person treating with a non residual chemical is not on any "Treadmill".

Which brings up another curious point. On this forum I see advise from treatment free folks, that the very worst way to start bees if you want to go treatment free, is to get a package. It's been stated that this is virtually doomed to failure. The way to go, apparently, is a nuc. Doesn't make sense though. A nuc, if that hive has ever in the past been treated with apistan or anything else residual, will have contaminated wax, making treatment free efforts a lot harder to succeed at. A package, has only bees, no residual chemicals. Surely a better way.

I think the term "Treatment Treadmill", has just been dreamt up as a meaningless buzzword, designed to pidgeonhole anybody who treats. There is no "Treatment Treadmill".
 
#75 ·
Regarding the "Treatment Treadmill" theory, the idea being proposed by some, is that once you are on the "Treatment Treadmill", you can never get off.

Can't really see that myself. Why can't you get off? It doesn't make sense because most people starting in bees start with bees that are treated, there just aren't many non treated bees for sale. I constantly see people complaining that they cannot get any. So, what's the difference wether they were bought treated, or you treated them yourself? None, far as I can see.

What I can see, is that using a product such as apistan that leaves permanent residue in the hive, could make it difficult to go treatment free later. But using a treatment such as oxalic acid that leaves no permanent residue in the hive, should have no effect later if somebody attempts to go treatment free later. So a person treating with a non residual chemical is not on any "Treadmill".


I think the term "Treatment Treadmill", has just been dreamt up as a meaningless buzzword, designed to pidgeonhole anybody who treats. There is no "Treatment Treadmill".
Amen to that OT. I think OA must really annoy some of these folks because it just seems too good to be true so they fall back on the "unseen damage to this huge microorganism" argument. They can't really point to any specific damage only the argument that any change to this "balance" must surely be bad. My experience is that a well timed yearly oxalic treatment is devastating to the mite population in a hive. It's cheap, safe (well not to mites) and easy to apply. Our mite populations are currently at nearly non detectable levels and our honey crop tests free of any mite killing chemicals and our bees seem to be humming along (pardon the pun) just fine. Just use the stuff and keep as many of those super organisms alive as you possibly can.
 
#77 ·
Knew I'd draw you out dean :) I only know for sure what I see with my eyes. Today I have about a thousand huge hives that could use another feed. Again changes occur without a doubt but it takes way more convincing for me to accept that what I have seen in recent years is bad. And no just because a specific oxalic product has not been approved does not make the use of oxalic any more illegal than the use of powdered sugar. Eides were fined for much more than that. Keep er rolling Dean were having fun now.
 
#79 ·
And no just because a specific oxalic product has not been approved does not make the use of oxalic any more illegal than the use of powdered sugar.
1. I've never advocated nor performed any powdered sugar treatments.
2. Sugar would most definitely be considered GRAS (meaning its use in the hive would not be a violation of the law...it is "generally recognized as safe")...not so much with OA.

deknow
 
#78 ·
I don't know what more I can add to the discussion. I've pointed out at least 3 specific mechanisms for a treatment treadmill (fumadill, comb contamination, antibiotics)....but it does not appear that anyone wants to discuss these things...so we are left with the question posed on the original post, "do you feel like you are on a treadmill?"
The answer from those that treat seems to either "I treat, and it works...I plan to continue treating" or "I'm treating sometimes, keeping g treating as an option until I don't need to treat anymore."
I would get the same answers in a bar if I asked if anyone had a drinking problem.

Deknow
 
#83 ·
....because, at one time or another, most of us have known someone who, with a slur in their voice, assures us that they don't have a drinking problem...when they obviously do.

The answers here for the question, "do you FEEL LIKE you are on a treadmill" are generally coming from folks that treat and plan to continue treating...to all outward appearances they are on a treadmill...all the while they are saying that they are not on a treadmill. The only claim missing from the alcohol analogy is people claiming that they could stop treating anytime they want...they just don't want to.

deknow
 
#93 ·
....because, at one time or another, most of us have known someone who, with a slur in their voice, assures us that they don't have a drinking problem...when they obviously do.
I got it. It’s like when the small cell or foundationless beekeepers acknowledge their losses but insist it isn’t a result of mites. I like your analogy.
 
#85 ·
dean, i want to borrow something i wrote in another thread,

"nobody is treating for bragging rights, or because it is fun and cheap.

what if you had, say, $350,000 (or any meaningful amount, your life savings?) invested in bees, boxes, trucks, forklifts, packing house ect.? assume you are married with 12 kids, and they all depend your your bee operation to survive."

'stuck on a treadmill' and the alcoholic analogy both carry with them the negative connotation that the individual is somehow caught in a situation detrimental to themselves (or their bees).

that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. it really depends on the whys and hows.
 
#89 ·
what if you had, say, $350,000 (or any meaningful amount, your life savings?) invested in bees, boxes, trucks, forklifts, packing house ect.? assume you are married with 12 kids, and they all depend your your bee operation to survive."
....that is like asking someone, "what would you do if all your eggs are in one basket?" ...I would do what I have to do, I would probably avoid that situation in the first place. ....just like you should do what you have or want to do. ..but let's not pretend that the products (bees and/or honey) are the same anymore than a shirt sewn by slave labor isn't the same as one produced by someone making a fair wage. ...and let's not pretend that treating is helping to transition into not treating.
We purchase honey from 3 suppliers, all of whom make their livings keeping bees, none of them use treatments....which is why we pay more for their honey, and why our customers pay more.

'stuck on a treadmill' and the alcoholic analogy both carry with them the negative connotation that the individual is somehow caught in a situation detrimental to themselves (or their bees).
...you will note that I posted a talk I gave (in 2010) called, "getting on the treatment free treadmill"....is there a negative connotation to this? Regardless, you can use whatever analogy or terminology you wish...but the fact that folks that are using treatments see the continued use of treatments necessary (as opposed to the possibility of discontinuing their use) makes the case, whether the term "treadmill" is used or not.

deknow
 
#87 ·
>unfortunately, such debate is not possible on the tfb forum because of the censorship created by the 'unique forum rules' and the willingness of the moderator to enforce them. i fell this downgrades the participation on that forum to a 'religon', welcoming only those who 'believe'.

Such a debate IS possible in other forums and indeed is taking place right here in this thread. The reasons for having forums such as the TFB or the TBH forum is so people can talk about HOW to do it, not why or why not. Before that set of rules every single post by every person asking a question about how to do something was followed by the same series of posts by the same people telling them they are stupid for trying it (TBH or TFB etc.). It is difficult to have a conversation on how to do something under those circumstances. It's like going to a vegetarian cooking forum where they want to talk about how to cook without meat and I start arguing about why they should eat meat. It's not only rude, it's counterproductive for everyone involved. It's not a question of censorship, but rather one of constructive organization--having the conversation in the right place for the right reason. Here you are HAVING that conversation you say is being censored...
 
#106 ·
The reasons for having forums such as the TFB or the TBH forum is so people can talk about HOW to do it, not why or why not.
That would cool if it were actually the case….but it isn’t. One example comes to mind…the studies on small cell and mites…were introduced by the moderator himself, if my memory serves me. Didn’t have anything to do with HOW. Now, I no longer intentionally read the postings there but I’m pretty confident that the topics are broader than you suggest but only one side of the issues is welcomed.
 
#90 ·
thanks for joining the conversation michael. i always value what you have to say.

yes indeed, we are having that conversation here, in the main forum, without any constraints, (barring profanity and incivility). i am thankful for that.

as a newcomer, i wasn't around when all that bickering and subterfuge was going on. i read a post you made on another forum yesterday that helped me understand the history a little better.

i'll have to admit, i got a little miffed when i had some of my posts deleted (censored) in the
tfb forum on this site. they were neither profane nor uncivil.

so, i agree with you, what i am seeing here, and on the tfb forum as of late, is healthy and spirited debate. i hope that it never digresses beyond that.
 
#91 ·
sure dean, to me 'stuck on' and 'getting on' have different connotations.

at the heart of the matter, is how one views treatments.

there are three views: helpful, harmful, or neutral.

there appears to be science to support all three, and it appears to depend on context.

philosophically, it's not much different than the debate over legalization of cannabis.

i agree with michael. the best thing we can do is share what we are doing, and what kind of outcomes we are seeing. the philosophical consideration can get in the way sometimes.
 
#92 ·
sure dean, to me 'stuck on' and 'getting on' have different connotations.
at the heart of the matter, is how one views treatments.
....it has nothing to do with "stuck on" or "getting on"...this is a distraction. If I said I was stuck on a treadmill of self realization, love, and wealth, that would not be negative. ...it _is_ all about how you feel about treatments.
If you think they are helpful for your bees, so be it. If you think your business would be affected negatively if you were totally upfront (on the label) about feeding and treating, then things are more problematic...what you feel you need to do, and what customers want are two different things.

If one is proud of their treatment practices, they should not take any more offense to "treatment treadmill" than I would at "treatment free treadmill". The fact that "treatments" have a negative connotation in general is not my fault, nor is it my responsibility.

there are three views: helpful, harmful, or neutral.
there appears to be science to support all three, and it appears to depend on context.
This is rather meaningless....helpful, harmful, and neutral only have meaning with context...to say that science supports any of them is an empty statement.
philosophically, it's not much different than the debate over legalization of cannabis.
...but the Moran study I posted earlier shows a long term (multigenerational) effect on gut microbe diversity and genetics. ...Mussen reports fumidill use stimulates nosema spore production as the levels disapate, stimulating the beekeeper to apply fumidill again. Operations (not all operations) where AFB is endemic, and only suppressed with antibiotics exist in all countries that allow antibiotics. The fact that there is a treadmill is pretty clearly established. ...it's more like a debate over whether people use cannibis rather than whether it should be legalized....it's an established fact.
the philosophical consideration can get in the way sometimes.
....i know that treatment free seems "philosophical" from some perspectives, but to me, it is a matter of practical necessity.

deknow
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top