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  1. #121
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,227

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    and it also seems as an excuse for a lot of noobs to take the 'well I'm treatment free excuse' for not inspecting their hives ever or monitoring for diseases or just not knowing anything about bees in general.
    I don't see why that should concern you. Is it your loss or are you wielding a finger?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,831

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    It may be appealing to one starting out to not treat, however, if you start out by purchasing your hive from a bee supply catalog, you will soon come to the pages of treatments for this and that disease and pest, so right from the start the beginner is faced with the decision of treating or not, but my thinking is that with limited knowledge the beginner is going to choose to treat in some fashion to try to preserve their investment in bees, unless they are fortunate to have a mentor that helps them choose the better option. Sorry if I offended anybody. John

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,071

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    I think Solomon just wants to run a tight ship and keep things on topic in that forum.
    It's not Solomon's decision.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,831

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    If I followed the line of thought in post #118 and applied it to me, then I would have to admit that even though I adhered to treatments for the first 35 or so years of my keeping bees and was therefore enlightened about bees in general, I have become dumber the last 5 years since going the non-treatment route. John

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,071

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Post 118 reminds me of the last two newbees I saw fail with TF.

    #1, installed package, I helped her inspect it a week later, everything fine, October comes around, the hive is dead. She did not check it once, fear I surmised.

    #2, started a hive, moved away, left hive with a non-beekeeper, never inspected, dead in October.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  6. #126
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Porcupine Plain, Saskatchewan, Canada
    Posts
    294

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    I feel stuck to the treadmill because of my location, my lack of small or natural cell size frames, and the fact that I care for all of my hives and don't want any to die. I know I can't escape my bees dying forever, but I want to minimize it. I might try treatment free when I have enough natural cell size frames.


    Nathan
    Good enough is perfect - Joel Salatin

  7. #127
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,071

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by sammyjay View Post
    don't want any to die.
    That's what sticks you, not the rest. You can't have natural without death. When people talk about natural selection, you rarely hear about what happens to the ones that aren't selected for success. In nature, the slow wildebeest doesn't get to retire on a farm upstate. He comes to a rather grisly end and often before getting to grow up.

    I am not saying any of this in any sort of negative way, it's just the fact of the matter. The decision as always is yours.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lititz, PA, USA
    Posts
    708

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    That's what sticks you, not the rest. You can't have natural without death.
    This is what makes such a problem for very small backyard beekeepers to be treatment free. Even if you buy queens from a breeder that does all the selection stuff possible in his mothers, the daughters won't always be the best survivors, you'll get a slow wildebeest every now and then. So eventually if you have 1-2 hives and that's all you want or can handle, you will be almost assuredly become beeless and be starting over. So being truly treatment free I believe involves resigning oneself to one of two options....either have many hives or be prepared for complete beelessness and starting over. "Many", of course, is open to interpretation, but it's not 1-2.

  9. #129
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,831

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    libhart, you can also get on the "resistant queen treadmill" if the treatment treadmill is not to your liking. That can get expensive too. You're right though, once that special queen you bought dies, is superceded or a swarm issues from that hive, you have lost some resistance in the new queen that is raised, someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that but that's what I read somewhere. John

  10. #130
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,071

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Libhart, you are absolutely correct. I recommend at least five as I have recommended for years. One thing is consistent among long term successful treatment-free beekeepers. They have more hives.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  11. #131
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,592

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    The same is true w/ nontreatment-free beekeepers, from what I have seen.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  12. #132
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,071

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Wow Mark, that is really eye opening. You are right.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #133
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,592

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Wow Mark, that is really eye opening. You are right.
    Almost sounds like sarcasm. But I know you don't do sarcasm. Right?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  14. #134

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    #1, She did not check it once
    #2, never inspected
    Had these two inspected regularly...what do you think they would have discovered? And what would you have recommended they do?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  15. #135
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,071

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Almost sounds like sarcasm. But I know you don't do sarcasm. Right?
    No sarcasm. That's what smilies are for. I never thought of it the way you just said it.


    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Had these two inspected regularly...what do you think they would have discovered? And what would you have recommended they do?
    That's a hypothetical situation squared. I got no answer for that.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  16. #136
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,831

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    I would try to make use of the smilies and other expressions more if I could figure out how to paste them on, then there would be no way anyone would question my sincerity. John

  17. #137
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,071

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    You just click the similie thing and pick which one you want.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  18. #138
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,592

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  19. #139
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,831

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    I should have just asked one of my kids and saved me the embarrassment, that was too easy. John

  20. #140
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    2,751

    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    JMGI,

    What in my post (#118) implies you got dumber by going treatment free? I was not bashing it in anyway. To me, it's one of the most difficult routes to take in keeping bees and I was merely pointing out it seems a lot of new people with aboslutely zero experience in bees/insects or basic biological systems use it as an excuse to not learn about the maladies of bees as it doesn't matter to them since they're treatment free. I would assume since you treated when you started you took some time to diagnose symptoms, recognize mites/diseases, and understand how the teatments were designed to work hence gaining knowledge of what's going on with your bees and not just ignoring it.

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