"treatment treadmill"

[beemandan]

I would get the same answers in a bar if I asked if anyone had a drinking problem.

You'd probably get similar answers anywhere you asked. Don't know why you felt the need to add the drinking problem shtick.

[Lburou]

...snip...The answer from those that treat seems to either "I treat, and it works...I plan to continue treating" or "I'm treating sometimes, keeping g treating as an option until I don't need to treat anymore."
I would get the same answers in a bar if I asked if anyone had a drinking problem.

Deknow

Well said. BTW, thanks for providing more direction for my over the winter.

[deknow]

....because, at one time or another, most of us have known someone who, with a slur in their voice, assures us that they don't have a drinking problem...when they obviously do.

The answers here for the question, "do you FEEL LIKE you are on a treadmill" are generally coming from folks that treat and plan to continue treating...to all outward appearances they are on a treadmill...all the while they are saying that they are not on a treadmill. The only claim missing from the alcohol analogy is people claiming that they could stop treating anytime they want...they just don't want to.

deknow

[deknow]

...let me add this link to a talk I gave a couple of years ago..."A Hard Row to Hoe: Getting on the Treatment-Free Treadmill".
http://vimeo.com/10196856

deknow

[squarepeg]

dean, i want to borrow something i wrote in another thread,

"nobody is treating for bragging rights, or because it is fun and cheap.

what if you had, say, $350,000 (or any meaningful amount, your life savings?) invested in bees, boxes, trucks, forklifts, packing house ect.? assume you are married with 12 kids, and they all depend your your bee operation to survive."

'stuck on a treadmill' and the alcoholic analogy both carry with them the negative connotation that the individual is somehow caught in a situation detrimental to themselves (or their bees).

that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. it really depends on the whys and hows.

[Erik]

This post started with a loaded question,therefore it was bound to get explosive answers...I am not pro treatment ,but maybe a 75-100 dollar hive isn't much to some,but if that were a sick 1200 dollar cow would you give her drugs or just wait and see if it comes out of it.

There is a big difference. If a hive dies I still have everything I paid for. All the boxes, lids, stands, and if I get to it before the wax moths I've got foundation or drawn frames. If a cow dies I don't know where you can go find free wild cows.

I've gotten my two hives from cutouts this year. Not only were the bees no charge to me, I got paid for getting them and their wild drawn comb.

I certainly don't see any reason to spend (waste) money on treatments of any kind. If these bees die I'll get paid to collect more bees next spring. I also get to incentivize ($50 goes to him) my 12 year old son to turn off the X-Box and come do cutouts with me. It's good money for a 12 year old, gets him outside, teaches him something about nature, and lets me spend time talking with him.

[Michael Bush]

>unfortunately, such debate is not possible on the tfb forum because of the censorship created by the 'unique forum rules' and the willingness of the moderator to enforce them. i fell this downgrades the participation on that forum to a 'religon', welcoming only those who 'believe'.

Such a debate IS possible in other forums and indeed is taking place right here in this thread. The reasons for having forums such as the TFB or the TBH forum is so people can talk about HOW to do it, not why or why not. Before that set of rules every single post by every person asking a question about how to do something was followed by the same series of posts by the same people telling them they are stupid for trying it (TBH or TFB etc.). It is difficult to have a conversation on how to do something under those circumstances. It's like going to a vegetarian cooking forum where they want to talk about how to cook without meat and I start arguing about why they should eat meat. It's not only rude, it's counterproductive for everyone involved. It's not a question of censorship, but rather one of constructive organization--having the conversation in the right place for the right reason. Here you are HAVING that conversation you say is being censored...

[jmgi]

Well said Michael, I have had that very thing happen to me many times, and it is very annoying and counterproductive as you say, I really hope that those type of intrusions can be a thing of the past eventually. John

[deknow]

what if you had, say, $350,000 (or any meaningful amount, your life savings?) invested in bees, boxes, trucks, forklifts, packing house ect.? assume you are married with 12 kids, and they all depend your your bee operation to survive."

....that is like asking someone, "what would you do if all your eggs are in one basket?" ...I would do what I have to do, I would probably avoid that situation in the first place. ....just like you should do what you have or want to do. ..but let's not pretend that the products (bees and/or honey) are the same anymore than a shirt sewn by slave labor isn't the same as one produced by someone making a fair wage. ...and let's not pretend that treating is helping to transition into not treating.
We purchase honey from 3 suppliers, all of whom make their livings keeping bees, none of them use treatments....which is why we pay more for their honey, and why our customers pay more.

'stuck on a treadmill' and the alcoholic analogy both carry with them the negative connotation that the individual is somehow caught in a situation detrimental to themselves (or their bees).

...you will note that I posted a talk I gave (in 2010) called, "getting on the treatment free treadmill"....is there a negative connotation to this? Regardless, you can use whatever analogy or terminology you wish...but the fact that folks that are using treatments see the continued use of treatments necessary (as opposed to the possibility of discontinuing their use) makes the case, whether the term "treadmill" is used or not.

deknow

[squarepeg]

thanks for joining the conversation michael. i always value what you have to say.

yes indeed, we are having that conversation here, in the main forum, without any constraints, (barring profanity and incivility). i am thankful for that.

as a newcomer, i wasn't around when all that bickering and subterfuge was going on. i read a post you made on another forum yesterday that helped me understand the history a little better.

i'll have to admit, i got a little miffed when i had some of my posts deleted (censored) in the
tfb forum on this site. they were neither profane nor uncivil.

so, i agree with you, what i am seeing here, and on the tfb forum as of late, is healthy and spirited debate. i hope that it never digresses beyond that.

[squarepeg]

sure dean, to me 'stuck on' and 'getting on' have different connotations.

at the heart of the matter, is how one views treatments.

there are three views: helpful, harmful, or neutral.

there appears to be science to support all three, and it appears to depend on context.

philosophically, it's not much different than the debate over legalization of cannabis.

i agree with michael. the best thing we can do is share what we are doing, and what kind of outcomes we are seeing. the philosophical consideration can get in the way sometimes.

[deknow]

sure dean, to me 'stuck on' and 'getting on' have different connotations.
at the heart of the matter, is how one views treatments.

....it has nothing to do with "stuck on" or "getting on"...this is a distraction. If I said I was stuck on a treadmill of self realization, love, and wealth, that would not be negative. ...it _is_ all about how you feel about treatments.
If you think they are helpful for your bees, so be it. If you think your business would be affected negatively if you were totally upfront (on the label) about feeding and treating, then things are more problematic...what you feel you need to do, and what customers want are two different things.

If one is proud of their treatment practices, they should not take any more offense to "treatment treadmill" than I would at "treatment free treadmill". The fact that "treatments" have a negative connotation in general is not my fault, nor is it my responsibility.

there are three views: helpful, harmful, or neutral.
there appears to be science to support all three, and it appears to depend on context.

This is rather meaningless....helpful, harmful, and neutral only have meaning with context...to say that science supports any of them is an empty statement.

philosophically, it's not much different than the debate over legalization of cannabis.

...but the Moran study I posted earlier shows a long term (multigenerational) effect on gut microbe diversity and genetics. ...Mussen reports fumidill use stimulates nosema spore production as the levels disapate, stimulating the beekeeper to apply fumidill again. Operations (not all operations) where AFB is endemic, and only suppressed with antibiotics exist in all countries that allow antibiotics. The fact that there is a treadmill is pretty clearly established. ...it's more like a debate over whether people use cannibis rather than whether it should be legalized....it's an established fact.

the philosophical consideration can get in the way sometimes.

....i know that treatment free seems "philosophical" from some perspectives, but to me, it is a matter of practical necessity.

deknow

[beemandan]

....because, at one time or another, most of us have known someone who, with a slur in their voice, assures us that they don't have a drinking problem...when they obviously do.

I got it. It’s like when the small cell or foundationless beekeepers acknowledge their losses but insist it isn’t a result of mites. I like your analogy.

[Solomon Parker]

Dan, that would be exactly the same, only without the slur.

[Solomon Parker]

I've had conversations go like this:

Me: "My hive died, but there were no mites in it."

Someone else: "Sounds to me like the mites got you."

Seriously.

[beemandan]

Dan, that would be exactly the same, only without the slur.

That actually gave me a laugh. You might just have a sense of humor!

[squarepeg]

good reply dean.

i am in 100% agreement with you that suppressing afb with preventative antibiotics doesn't make sense in the long run. no responsible physician that i know would use antibiotics in this way. there is no question that you will develop resistant bacteria, as has already happened with terramycin, and run the risk of afb popping up once treatments are stopped. i say, 'buyer beware' of any old hives, or nucs that have been split out of hives, that have been treated in this way.

i look forward to reading the mussen report. if it's a good study, this would be a case of science supporting the harmfulness of that treatment, how is that 'meaningless' or 'empty'? (i decided not to apply fumidill to my hives every fall as was recommended to me when i started. i definitely don't want that in my comb or honey). i do want to understand my options should nosema threaten my hive(s).

so far as the 'stuck on' vs. 'getting on', not worth quibbling about. thanks for your posts.

[jim lyon]

Hic no but seriously. I feel I am running an experiment in the macro. We treat far less than we used to and I consider myself pretty responsible in what we use and when we use it. Why do some choose to put so little weight in the results we have achieved? Why do I feel some are genuinely irked that we are succeeding and want to do their best to dismiss it? I have evolved and adapted and I don't consider my views nearly as rigid as those espousing a very narrow treatment free dogma. We were just recently reminded of this over on the tf forum when a prominent poster admitted that he wasn't even open minded about his views on treating just that he believes what he believes. To each his own that's certainly his right.

[beemandan]

Me: "My hive died, but there were no mites in it."

When I find deadouts….I rarely find mites either, unless I catch them mid-failure. Then I see the scavengers hauling off the mites too.
There's plenty of denial to go around.....slurring or not.

[Acebird]

and let's not pretend that treating is helping to transition into not treating.

This would kill more than half the advice given here on Beesource to a newbie. And it is hard for a newbie to not take the advice of a more experienced person without them getting their nose out of joint.