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  1. #1
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    Default "treatment treadmill"

    in post #21, in the thread 'm bush on treatment-free', in the tfb forum, solomon parker writes:

    "I do not want a first year beekeeper to start any way but treatment-free. Once on the treadmill, there's no good way to get off."

    do any of you feel like you are stuck on a treadmill and can't get off?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #2
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Not in the least; I thought the logic there was a bit loose! A bees lifetime is so short and the genetics so easily replaced by requeening that previous methods can quickly be history. I like what some are doing by way of control and comparison in running both methods. Unless you are very isolated and have a huge number of hives, the feral background is much more influential than your bees so I dont buy the argument that having treated bees at large is compromising the treatment free experiment
    In my opinion," on the treadmill, no good way to get off", are loaded with emotional barbs rather than appealing to rational appraisal of the topic on its own merrits. I try to keep my mind open and peer through the haze of confusion. It will be interesting in 10 years to look back with the clarity of hindsight and see how this played out. In the meantime I wont have all my eggs in one basket.

  3. #3
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    Thumbs Up I'll bite.

    I believe in Integrated Pest Management, but do not assert that philosophy on anyone else.

    My goal is treatment free, but judicious use of 'chemicals' is on the table for a year or two until I get a good mite and disease resistant apiary. Soft treatments first, stronger only if necessary (hopefully never). Letting the bees die off does not make them stronger. My goal is to find strong and healthy queens with good characteristics and mite tolerance, then, step off the treatment treadmill. I'll keep the bees alive by whatever means necessary until we get the queen issues solved so we can leave them alone.

    After a 20 year beekeeping hiatus, I've only seen a handful of mites in my three hives and three NUCS this summer. I've requeened with survivor genes from Bweaver (No, they aren't that defensive) and others, -there is a strong local/feral drone influence in my queens now: I'm optimistic!

    Randy Oliver warns about the Beekeeping Taliban. I want to remain open minded and at the same time help beginners when they ask, even guide them some, but let them sink or swim on their own decisions.

    No offense to anyone intended with these statements, I know its a hot topic.
    Last edited by Lburou; 11-06-2012 at 08:29 AM.
    LeeB
    I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up :)

  4. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lburou View Post
    My goal is to find strong and healthy queens with good characteristics and mite tolerance, then, step off the treatment treadmill. I'll keep the bees alive by whatever means necessary until we get the queen issues solved so we can leave them alone.


    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I thought the logic there was a bit loose! A bees lifetime is so short and the genetics so easily replaced by requeening that previous methods can quickly be history.

    In my opinion," on the treadmill, no good way to get off", are loaded with emotional barbs rather than appealing to rational appraisal of the topic on its own merrits.
    my thoughts exactly.

    i think the implication for the beginner who aspires to keep bees healthy without treatments is that if you ever start treatments you are committed to them forever.

    i would think the beginner would be best served by learning how to recognize a colony that is suffering (an understatement for sure) from mite infestation, along with learning how to clean it up and requeen with resistant stock.
    Last edited by squarepeg; 11-06-2012 at 10:52 AM. Reason: fixed lee's quote
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #5
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    May 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    I don't like mites, nuff said. I could care less if the bees are survivor stock, vsh, or related to Chuck Norris. I'm killing mites because I don't want to see any around. That being said, I feel no obligation to treat if I don't see mites and I will not use a single method which may lead to resistant mites. I'm even going to see if I can do a Co2 mite drop type sample instead of an alcohol shake.

  6. #6
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    Spokane, Washington, USA
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Sure, go ahead and be treatment free. You'll be buying nucs form me next spring.

  7. #7
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    Belpre,Ohio, USA
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    I want to start off by saying that I do treat my bees with Oxalic Acid vapor in the fall against the Varroa mite, I suppose I could be labeled an organic beekeeper. When I started treating last fall I had only one hive at that time and during the first week in September as I would walk down to my hive I was walking on a carpet of DWV crawlers on their death march from the hive, the hive would have no doubt died off during that winter if something wasn't done quickly, so the OA vapor treatment was the method I chose and the Dwv problem disappeared.I have never regretted it, now I have six hives, treated them in September and will do so again around the end of November to give them a good start for this coming spring.

    The Varroa is a parasite and I treat it as such, if the treatment free program turns out to be successful someday and gives us all a new breed of bees that a lot of folks are looking for, I will be among those cheering but I do not think we are there yet so until then I do not have the time, money or the inclination to be replacing deadouts every spring. I do not look down on those who desire to go treatment free but I do get irritated with inflammatory remarks that are used to shed a bad light on those of us who do treat.
    Last edited by WWW; 11-06-2012 at 08:17 PM.
    Bill...in Southeast Ohio

  8. #8
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by RAK View Post
    Sure, go ahead and be treatment free. You'll be buying nucs form me next spring.
    Doubt they would be buying treated nucs from you if they are maintaining treatment free bees.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: I'll bite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lburou View Post

    Randy Oliver warns about the Beekeeping Taliban. I want to remain open minded and at the same time help beginners when they ask, even guide them some, but let them sink or swim on their own decisions.

    No offense to anyone intended with these statements, I know its a hot topic.
    This is as it always has been. One takes in knowledge and advice and decides which is best. I have friends who used to say something like "Why didn't you do it like I told you to?" Well, it wasn't the way I wanted to do it, but thanks for the advice. Sometimes I have to learn for myself. Maybe I should have done it your way. But in the end I have to do things my way, for good or ill. At least for me, it has ever been thus.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  10. #10
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    do any of you feel like you are stuck on a treadmill and can't get off?
    Not personally, but I do find that when one goes cold turkey ones bees are very likely to up and die. Hence the treadmill.

    It's interesting to see people still thinking that the treatment-free style is new and unproven. I'm happy to be on the cutting edge, but I've been doing it for almost ten years. Surely it's not new anymore.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  11. #11
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Not personally, but I do find that when one goes cold turkey ones bees are very likely to up and die. Hence the treadmill.

    It's interesting to see people still thinking that the treatment-free style is new and unproven. I'm happy to be on the cutting edge, but I've been doing it for almost ten years. Surely it's not new anymore.
    i can appreciate that solomon.

    i feel we can all thank the likes of dee lusby, michael bush, and others for pioneering the way.

    i heartily agree with the advice that you and others give, to include a viable way of making increase, in order to replenish losses, (whether using treatments or not).
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #12
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    ...it's pretty hard to un-contaminate comb (and I noticed that Mann Lake is including coumaphos in their variety pack this season). In addition, fumagillin may well be a treatment treadmill...once you start, you have to reapply.

    http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/files/147880.pdf
    Having seen the previous data, it is interesting to note what Zachary Huang’s lab discovered (ABJ abstract #14) about feeding fumagillin to honey bees to control Nosema ceranae. In their studies, they found that the antibiotic impacts both the parasite and the protein makeup of the honey bee intestinal tract. In fact, as the level of fumagillin decreases in the bees over time, it reaches a low level which actually stimulates spore production of N. ceranae. A similar effect is seen with N. apis, but it is not nearly so pronounced.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Not personally, but I do find that when one goes cold turkey ones bees are very likely to up and die.
    when mentoring someone to go cold turkey, is the plan to let their bees up and die, or do you recommend implementing measures to aid in the transition, for example, requeening with resistant stock?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #14
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    That's a tough question Squarepeg. It certainly couldn't hurt. Whatever is done, I recommend rapid and profuse splitting. You'll have a better chance of not having all the hives die at once, and that's my main focus. These new hives will probably also be building new clean comb which can only help as well.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  15. #15
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    That's a tough question Squarepeg. It certainly couldn't hurt. Whatever is done, I recommend rapid and profuse splitting. You'll have a better chance of not having all the hives die at once, and that's my main focus. These new hives will probably also be building new clean comb which can only help as well.
    that makes sense solomon. why was it a tough question?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #16
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    It depends on the case. So much of beekeeping is subjective and local. Some have certain resources, others don't. I'm still working on a one-size-fits-all solution. I'll tell you when it's finished.

    I try not to opine about that which I have not done myself. However, I know of people who have used that approach and it has worked for them.

    I have also experienced obtaining a treated hive, not treating it, and it promptly dying. That was my father's short foray into beekeeping. He's done it twice now. I don't recommend it.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  17. #17
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    I am treatment free because I have never found a reason to treat.

    I have never seen a mite in/around/near my bees. And yes, I do test. I also do not even know what a SHB looks like. The only things I have seen in my hives, other than bees is: a spider last week, and an earwig, also last week.

    I think something should be said for getting resistant stock in the first place and not using used equipment.
    Personally, I got Italians from California and then requeened with resistant stock.
    If you think anything organic is good for you, go drink some organic solvents.
    geek, learning how to be a beek

  18. #18
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by seyc View Post
    I am treatment free because I have never found a reason to treat.

    I have never seen a mite in/around/near my bees. And yes, I do test. I also do not even know what a SHB looks like. The only things I have seen in my hives, other than bees is: a spider last week, and an earwig, also last week.
    Give it some time. I went for a year-and-a-half before I found mites.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  19. #19
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    ...this was just posted on "another forum"....talk about a treadmill.
    At the Bee conference in Tampa, FL this past week, Dr Diana Sammataro gave 3 different talks on mites. One of her studies is on: what effect does what we feed our bees have on the mites in the hive. She isolated the study into 3 groups. The first group was allowed to feed in the wild, the second were fed pollen that was collected and sold to beeks and the third were fed pollen substitutes. To control the bee’s source of food, she had the second 2 groups of hives in tents. She found it is hard to keeps them alive for any great length of time in tents. All three groups had the queens in laying cages (square cage over the comb) to control the day the eggs were laid and only in the control area. On the 8th day (they day before they are capped) they were placed in hives that were heavy in mites. Each mite hive had 1 frame from each group. After they were capped the frames were removed and just before the bees hatched they were opened and the mites were counted. She just recently got the results from her first try. The natural fed bees had an average of about 43 mites on the worker brood, the pollen had an average of around 53 mites on worker brood (no drones allowed in the test cases) but the pollen substitute averaged around 273 mites on the worker brood.
    As you can imagine, this was a total surprise. She showed pictures of the results. The bees from the substitute were covered with mites. She did note that these same bees were on average heaver that the other bees.
    Diana is still working on this to determine what is happening with this situation.
    Jim

  20. #20
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    Default Re: "treatment treadmill"

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Not personally, but I do find that when one goes cold turkey ones bees are very likely to up and die. Hence the treadmill.
    Interesting conclusion supported by how many data points?:

    I have also experienced obtaining a treated hive, not treating it, and it promptly dying. That was my father's short foray into beekeeping. He's done it twice now. I don't recommend it.
    .
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

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