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  1. #121
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Certification for what?
    Have some more coffee. Is it a surprise to you that Beekeeping would be the primary topic on the Beesource forum?

    See this link:
    http://www.virginiabeekeepers.org/co...eekeeper-level
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 11-11-2012 at 08:58 AM.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  2. #122
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    Norfolk, VA
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Certification for what?
    Master Beekeeper Program - Three levels: Qualified, Certified, Master Level.
    Just a small exerpt:
    Safe Use of Pesticides
    A. For each of the following materials approved for use in or around bee hives, be
    able to describe the procedures for safe handling, use, storage and disposal.
    • Apiguard
    • ApiLife VAR
    • Apistan (fluvalinate)
    • Bee Go (butyric anhydride)
    • Checkmite (coumaphos)
    • Fischer’s Bee Quick
    • Formic Acid (Mite-Away II)
    • Fumagillin (Fumigilin-B; old name Fumidil-B)
    • Guardstar (permethrin)
    • Mite-A-Thol (menthol pellets)
    • Terramycin (tetracycline)
    • Tylan (tylosin)
    • Sucrocide
    • Paramoth (para-dichlorobenzene)

  3. #123
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    Utica, NY
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    10,151

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Is it a surprise to you that Beekeeping would be the primary topic on the Beesource forum?
    Not at all so why did you send me a link to a certification for a beekeeper. That is not the same as a certification for beekeeping. Do you have to be a certified beekeeper to own hives in VA?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  4. #124
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,935

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Not at all so why did you send me a link to a certification for a beekeeper. That is not the same as a certification for beekeeping. Do you have to be a certified beekeeper to own hives in VA?
    got a point there ace. again, it all boils down to what the definition of 'is' is.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #125
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Do you have to be a certified beekeeper to own hives in VA?
    First I've read on this thread about owning hives. I thought I was responding to my statement of bucking the status quo with respect to TFB? (post 84)
    And the status quo (Master Beekeeping Program as an example) does not teach TFB. That's all I am trying to say.

    So, although a single data point, here is a state level organization that does not teach, train, or even mention TF as a possible (viable?) way to keep hives. I know I can ignore them, but guess who has the money and lobby power to affect laws and government.

    So your question has merit. I'll even add to it: When will it become mandatory to be a certified beekeeper in order to own hives in VA? And will it become unlawful to keep them contrary to established scientific practices as set forth in the Master Beekeeping Program?

    Think it can't happen? Ever thought it would be unlawful to buy a large soft drink at a restaurant in NYC?
    Sorry, I'll ease away from the edge and get off my big government rant.
    Last edited by bbrowncods; 11-11-2012 at 12:33 PM.

  6. #126
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    Calgary, Alberta, CA
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    78

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by bbrowncods View Post
    In Virginia there is a certification program. Study what they teach in order to pass the practical and written tests. I doubt if anyone would be allowed to pass that doesn't subscribe to the established treatments. Maybe they would, but that is not what I read in the study questions.
    Does the cert require that you to treat, or simply to be knowledgeable about treatments?

    Part of the value of Certifications is that they ensure breadth and depth, regardless of one's specific needs and practice.

  7. #127
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    Oct 2012
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    Norfolk, VA
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Metropropolis View Post
    Does the cert require that you to treat, or simply to be knowledgeable about treatments?

    Part of the value of Certifications is that they ensure breadth and depth, regardless of one's specific needs and practice.
    First, I didn't mean to imply that the program is mandatory. The Virginia State Beekeepers Association (VSBA) is a non-profit organization and is completely voluntary to even join. But, for instance, in Norfolk if you belong to the local association you automatically belong to VSBA.

    It requires you to be able to describe procedures for safe handling, use, storage and disposal. But I think it is a stretch for someone to be able to do so without some experience in actual practice. Especially a newbee with only a couple of years experience.
    To your breadth and depth statement. What is the most disconcerting however, is not that they want you to know about treatments, it is that there is no thought or discussion of TF at all. So if TF is not even considered in the curriculum to becoming a "Master Beekeeper", then there is really only one alternative isn't there? (at least in the belief of the most powerful beekeeper organization in VA) And what does that say about those who are TFB? Not much.

    And my point in the previous post is that they are the ones running the show.
    Last edited by bbrowncods; 11-11-2012 at 12:28 PM.

  8. #128
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    I don't know why the word "Certified" is even included in the title of the VA Master Beekeeper Program. A person wanting to keep bees in VA does not need a certificate or need to be a Master Beekeeper to keep bees in VA.

    I don't know how long ago the VA Beekeepers Association was established, but beekeeping has been practiced in VA longer than any other State in the Union. Just thought you'd like to know.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  9. #129
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    Calgary, Alberta, CA
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    78

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by bbrowncods View Post
    To your breadth and depth statement. What is the most disconcerting however, is not that they want you to know about treatments, it is that there is no thought or discussion of TF at all. So if TF is not even considered in the curriculum to becoming a "Master Beekeeper", then there is really only one alternative isn't there? (at least in the belief of the most powerful beekeeper organization in VA) And what does that say about those who are TFB? Not much.
    Sounds like there is an opportunity here to add some curriculum. Why don't you create some content, and submit it for their consideration?

    Alternately, you could put on your own bee workshops to show others how you keep bees without treatments, and how others can do it.

    It's easy for new beekeepers to rail against the establishment - But it takes some heavy lifting to present a viable alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbrowncods View Post
    And my point in the previous post is that they are the ones running the show.
    It's unclear what this means. Are they able to dictate how you keep bees?

  10. #130
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    Washington County, Maine
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    From what I can see the Master Beekeeping certification programs are primarily interested in promoting knowledge in the Beekeeper community. Can a candidate recognize foul brood, respond accurately and favorably to the beekeeping industry for questions about swarms, etc, demonstrate an ability to deal with a wide range of honey bee issues like "What should I do about the bees that live in a hole outside my back door?" and it is late August and a beekeeper says "I think I have foul brood: There is a stench coming from my bee yard." And knowing how the various medications are used is an important part of the knowledge expected of a Master Beekeeper. There is much more to most Master Beekeeper programs - Ann Harmon has had a series of articles published in Bee Culture the last few months on the various master beekeeping programs.

    I am likely to take the master beekeeper exams at the EAS meeting in 2013.

    [Set opinion on]

    Why isn't treatment free beekeeping promoted better in master beekeeping programs? TF is far from mainstream. Leading proponents of TF are often portrayed as unscientific or anti-science zealots. Many of the leading TF people, including some posting on this forum, are "lone wolfs" and are content to keep their focus on their own operations and not the larger beekeeping community.

    The master beekeeper programs have developed out of the history of keeping bees primarily in Langstroth hives. Things are changing slowly and MB candidates should be able to identify a Warre or TBH and describe how they are used, and what the goals are for using those types of hives. I haven't seen any indication that TF beekeepers are thought less of than beekeepers who choose to treat, but there is an expectation (prejudice) that TF Beekeepers are not showing all their cards or rather describing their results with less than full transparency.

    There are great parallels between the organic farming movement and TF beekeeping. Namely that it takes a long time and a lot of work to take an idea that the general population dismisses as whacked and demonstrate that there is some validity to it. Building on concepts that the general population already understands like the need for decent habitat is perhaps a good place to start.

    TF Beekeeping will not be represented as many on this forum would like to see it represented in Master Beekeeping Programs until positive results are consistently, regularly and verifiably documented.

    The fact that this forum exists tells me that the journey has started. It will be a long road though.

    [Set opinion off]
    Master Beekeeper (EAS) and Master Gardener (U Maine CE) www.beeberrywoods.com

  11. #131
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Dewey View Post

    [Set opinion on]

    Why isn't treatment free beekeeping promoted better in master beekeeping programs?

    [Set opinion off]
    First of all, what is [Set Opinion On] and [Set Opinion Off], another way of quoting? I have never seen that before. What is the source of the quote?

    Perhaps Treatment Free Beekeeping isn't part of most Master Beekeeper Courses because it is not a set method and how diseases and pests are addressed is not uniformely agreed upon w/in the Treatment Free Community or it is simply a matter of "leave it alone, it'll take care of itself." Which is not satisfying to those who have been keeping bees for a long time.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  12. #132
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    First of all, what is [Set Opinion On] and [Set Opinion Off], another way of quoting? I have never seen that before. What is the source of the quote?
    Sorry to cause confusion Mark - I was trying to clearly separate conjecture from what I hope are the provable facts of the first part of my post. Set __ on and Set __ off are (old now) computer programming commands.
    Master Beekeeper (EAS) and Master Gardener (U Maine CE) www.beeberrywoods.com

  13. #133
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Metropropolis View Post
    Does the cert require that you to treat, or simply to be knowledgeable about treatments?

    Part of the value of Certifications is that they ensure breadth and depth, regardless of one's specific needs and practice.
    It asks for "the procedures for safe handling, use, storage and disposal. It does not require that you use them it requires you have the knowledge to safely use them.

    omition is not evidence. that they require you to have the knowledge to use them it is assumed they expect you will use them.

    That they do not mention Treatment Free is not evidence they are not aware of treatment free. they simply do not require that you know it to be certified. I am sure their is a long list of things they consider to trivial to require.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  14. #134
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Thanks Andrew, never saw them before. Would you mind telling where the quote comes from? If not, okay.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  15. #135
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Thanks Andrew, never saw them before. Would you mind telling where the quote comes from? If not, okay.
    I'm not sure what part of the post you are referring to. I looked at the post and don't see anything unattributed. My use of the term "lone wolf" was intending to indicate that is how people are sometimes described, and not to indicate a quote from a particular person.
    Master Beekeeper (EAS) and Master Gardener (U Maine CE) www.beeberrywoods.com

  16. #136
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    "Why is TF beekeeping not supported better in master beekeeping programs"?

    Here is how it shapes up for me. Treatment free is the beekeeping version of Veggan, Tree huggers, Naturalist, whatever you want to call it. It varies in it's details considerably even within the group itself. I am talking about the thinking overall of the group not just bees. Followers can range from mild such as those that try to garden with no pesticides to extremely radical such as those that will make villages from mud huts and live with home made wood burning stoves. See this link for an example. Also called sustainable living. http://www.aprovecho.net/

    Such movements an lifestyles are considered radical. Much of what they teach and believe seems to have a heavy element of wishing about it. They tend to minimize the negatives and accentuate the positives or even worse simply make up results out of pure hope. In large this inaccurate portrayal of their results is due to also being subjected to greater than ordinary criticism. They often feel they are expected to produce methods that perform to higher standards than the main stream for example. That main stream methods have accepted shortcomings in their systems. and yet minor flaws in their own are cause for rejection. etc.

    Master bee programs woudl most likely not be associated with such efforts as it makes them subject to the same "Those people are crazy" attitude that the main stream tends to have. IN addition the programs would not promote the methods due to the tendency that the methods of such groups are not reliable. When asked to test the methods or offered the opportunity for others to test them. the response is usually and overwhelmingly a rejection.

    Accurate or not. true or not. Treatment Free beekeeping does fit the model fairly well. It is radically different, places claims with little or no evidence, and resists being looked at to closely. people are simply told to try it and see for themselves.

    I even see in this group that the TF advocates are now making efforts to establish a complete acceptance of the principals or be excluded. The person that woudl be interested in not treating by a schedule but managing by treating only when needed is not really welcome in their group. IT is no treatment at all ever or you are not a part. It is way I see that even the beekeepers practice this radical irresponsible promotion and recruitment of there ideas. IT is more about control of others, than better beekeeping.

    So the final reason I see programs to not support TF beekeeping is that it is not better beekeeping. it may very well not be recognized as methods of beekeeping at all.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  17. #137
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    The closest thing to TF that is discussed at beginner classes in my neck of the woods is sugar dusting. They snicker when they mention that too. It's the local master keepers that are teaching the classes. They won't even say there are some people having success. In our local google group someone asked why most of the speakers at EAS were TF or heading that way and being successful. The VP of the MSBA said he's heard it's possible but that none of these folks "write anything down" and are "not scientists" so there is no reason to believe they are actually doing anything sucessfully. He also said it's easier and cheaper in the long run to treat. I'm going to plug along doing my best where I am with what I have. Having nearly zero local support is disheartening.

  18. #138
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    I'm baffled by what I am reading here. The worst thinformation that could happen to "treatment free beekeeping" would be to have it taught in a master beekeeper program by someone that does not understand and/or practice it. Would you take a beekeeping class from a non beekeeper?
    with regards to transparency, I'm not sure what you are expecting. There are at least two conferences every year, Michael has answered a billion or so questions from others, built a website that everyone visits, wrote a rather comprehensive book, and has been speaking to more bee clubs than anyone else on the circuit.
    We run (and finance) a conference every year, wrote a book, speak regularly at bee clubs, support our local club, and teach both beginning and advanced beekeeping....we have a teaching apiary in downtown Boston where we do weekly hive openings with anyone who is interested....
    How transparent do you expect us to be?

    As far as the commercial viability of treatment free beekeeping, we have three suppliers who are treatment free....they all make their livings with the bees, and they are paid a healthy premium for their product.

    Deknow

  19. #139
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    [QUOTE=Kristen2678;866793]The closest thing to TF that is discussed at beginner classes in my neck of the woods is sugar dusting.[quote]
    you are not far from us....we are teaching both a beginners and advanced beekeeping course in Boston (at the intercontinental Hotel) on Monday nights in January. We offer a 6 day treatment free beekeeping conference in July (in Leominster, ma)...and we have some treatment free bees in Portland. Beeuntoothers.com

    Deknow

  20. #140
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    Mar 2012
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    North Berwick, Maine, USA
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    The funny and sad part of it was, Michael Bush was a speaker at the state meeting this year and a couple weeks prior had given a talk and open hive session just outside of Portland. He signed my copy of his book. I wish I'd asked him why he's never "written anything down"...... Like I said, painful for a beginner. They just don't want to see what's there.

    DeKnow, I'm already on the list for a couple of your queens net year. My new nucs are coming from Kirk Webster. I'm thankful for you folks that have put the time and effort in. I'd be lost and on the treatment wagon otherwise.

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