M Bush on Treatment-Free

[Solomon Parker]

Jim, could you point out some? I'll offer up myself as an example. Please enumerate my intolerance. Surely someone as volatile and disagreeable as me is guilty of some intolerance.

[deknow]

Jim, I don't disagree....but at the same time, you've seen what I post...I'm pretty consistent in how I approach things, and although I have strong opinions, I try to see things from the perspective of others.

It is dishonest to take the worst examples of something (misguided motivation/implentation of treatment free beekeeping), and apply it to a whole movement. I will also tell you that our first year conference in Leominster with Dee Lusby, Erik Osterlund, Mike Palmer, Sam Comfort, etc. was referred to as a "cult meeting" by Randy...to an entire state beekeeping meeting about 100 miles from my home...this is not "tit for tat"....I've had some productive discussions with Randy, and we have provided each other with some research support here and there...it is just to point out that the attitude is not a new one.

Would it be fair of me to take the worst accounts I've heard of from the commercial beekeeping world for how bees are fed, and talk about how fed bees results in honey that is 30% sugar? ....or is the worst case the worst case?

There is a lot of good, solid advice and information about treatment free beekeeping. There are books, there are websites, and there are online discussions...some of which Randy has participated in. Yet, he ignored all of that in order to toss the term "beekeeping taliban" around by addressing only the worst of what he has seen.

If he didn't want to be judged harshly for writing that, he shouldn't have written it.

deknow

[squarepeg]

'raises hand'

the 'unique rules' that apply to this forum could be viewed as lack of tolerance.

they are why i have 'moved on' from participating here.

[Solomon Parker]

This forum is designed to shelter treatment free beekeepers from the constant attacks they receive from intolerant beekeepers. I have not called conventional beekeepers "lazy." I have not called their methods "poison" or "lies." Yet these exact epithets have been used against me and my methods. Now we have "Beekeeping Taliban." Where is the equal?

Every member of this website is allowed to use this forum (except for one that I know of) as long as they behave according to the rules which set the topic and decorum of the forum. That's not intolerant. That's regulation. It's necessary for civil discourse and every forum on this website is the same in that regard.

[jim lyon]

I don't consider you the source of intolerance Sol. I don't agree with you on much but I respect your openness. If however you are suggesting that an intolerant element doesn't exist within the treatment free crowd then I suggest you must be living in a different world than me. I am not even saying it represents a majority only that harsh words are often directed at those who choose to treat. But then you know me, just one of those big commercial guys who just dumps chemicals in my hives without regard to......well you know how it goes.

[deknow]

...If however you are suggesting that an intolerant element doesn't exist within the treatment free crowd then I suggest you must be living in a different world than me.

I apologize, I don't think I was clear. I agree with the above...but I don't appreciate being placed into this category any more than you would appreciate being placed in with the worst of the worst commercial beekeepers.

It isn't fair or honest to paint the whole movement from the worst offenders...especially when there is quite a bit written from Michael Bush, Dennis Murell, myself, etc. This was Randy's choice, and he made it. It shouldn't be surprising that his words weren't universally revered.

deknow

[Solomon Parker]

My question Jim, is where is this that you're talking about? Maybe it's not me, in fact I know it's not me because I don't talk like that. So who does? I spend much more of the time defending against stuff rather than spewing my own, virtuous as it may be.

[squarepeg]

This forum is designed to shelter treatment free beekeepers from the constant attacks they receive from intolerant beekeepers.

i wasn't aware that those in the tfb camp felt they needed 'sheltering'.

from what i've been reading, it looks like they can hold their own pretty good.

personal attacks have no place here. open and spirited debate is what makes this site what it is.

[Solomon Parker]

i wasn't aware that those in the tfb camp felt they needed 'sheltering'.

It was more like "we want to talk about soft treatments" to which the administrator replied "no." In the Bee Forum you talk about bees, in the Commercial Forum, you talk about commercial beekeeping, in the Top Bar Hive Forum, you talk about top bar hives. To this day people still want to talk about treatments in the Treatment Free Beekeeping forum. Why?

"Treatment-free treatments," that's a quote. Somebody actually posted looking for information on treatment-free treatments.

[squarepeg]

so what is it?

constant attacks or wanting to talk about soft treatments.

why not do away with the litmus test, end the divisiveness, don't make it either/or ect.

pretty funny about the treatment free treatments.

[Solomon Parker]

so what is it? constant attacks or wanting to talk about soft treatments.

Who said there was a difference? There's nothing in the general rules that says you can't call someone else's point of view poison, or call their method "lazy beekeeping" or demand that they allow you to talk about whatever you want.

[squarepeg]

right! and all of the forums rock along just fine. profanity, personal attacks, ect. are dealt with as needed.

but the content is what it is.

i'm alright sol, kinda like the ground hog in 'caddy shack'.

just my .02, sorry if i fanned a flame.

[Solomon Parker]

Right, so where is the other side? It's not equal. Both sides are not doing the same thing. It's never true. Whenever someone says 'both sides do it' they're actually on the side doing it the most.

[deknow]

i'm alright sol, kinda like the ground hog in 'caddy shack'.

I demand a video of you doing the gopher dance (as punishment for calling the gopher a groundhog). Just don't mess with Stripes, and we will be ok.

deknow

[d.frizzell]

Goodness, can this forum talk about treatment free beekeeping for a change...there is a lot of knowledge out there and many want to share it, but they always seem to have to defend themselves because they are actually making it work...sorry but all this is getting really old...and some of us are here to learn about treatment free beekeeping and those of you who only want to whine and complain about how difficult it is should just "listen" for a change...there are some great topics on this forum...this is not one of them.

[wadehump]

I would be very interested in hearing of someone who has had a single hive that has survived untreated with unbroken lineage (queen to her next generation biological daughter) for 3 years (5 would be better). Now I know a hive can be manipulated to make this work, but I am talking naturally. Heck, I'll even expand that to a treated hive. Anybody Hear it from me i have 7 hives that are 5 + years old and 8-9 that are 3 years old never have a drop of dope added to them all foundationless and all have requeened by swarming every year they are all mutts

[Andrew Dewey]

Part of the confusion I believe has to do with the concepts of "hard" and "soft" treatments. Some people (not me) consider soft treatments as consistent with their ideas of natural beekeeping. AFAIK organic standards allow for no additive treatments. Certified Naturally Grown allows some (Formic I think) as a transitional measure. CNG calls for some things that make no sense to me - like hive stands of a certain height. I can understand hive stand use to slow down predators like skunks - but my bees are already behind electric netting and so the requirement is solving a non-existent problem. Writing standards to cover all scenarios on a national basis must be quite the challenge!

[Andrew Dewey]

I would be very interested in hearing of someone who has had a single hive that has survived untreated with unbroken lineage (queen to her next generation biological daughter) for 3 years (5 would be better). Now I know a hive can be manipulated to make this work, but I am talking naturally. Heck, I'll even expand that to a treated hive. Anybody Hear it from me i have 7 hives that are 5 + years old and 8-9 that are 3 years old never have a drop of dope added to them all foundationless and all have requeened by swarming every year they are all mutts

Around here if your bees swarm you can forget about a honey crop. What has your honey production been like? (Once again all beekeeping is really local!)

[squarepeg]

I demand a video of you doing the gopher dance (as punishment for calling the gopher a groundhog). Just don't mess with Stripes, and we will be ok.

deknow

thanks for the correction dean. promise not to mess with stripes, so long as you don't make me eat the baby ruth.

frizzel, good point.

wade, good work!

andrew, "Writing standards to cover all scenarios on a national basis must be quite the challenge! " is one reason why i think the rules are problematic here.

sol, thanks for engaging here and on the main forum. i probably shouldn't have stuck my nose in where it didn't belong.

[sqkcrk]

. This was Randy's choice, and he made it. It shouldn't be surprising that his words weren't universally revered.

deknow

I just got my Nov. 2012 ABJ and this is how Randy Oliver opens his "Sick Bee" Article.

" "It's what you know for sure that keeps you from learning."
And I am all about learning. I'd like to nmake it perfectly clear that I do not consider myself to be the final arbiter on any matter! In investigating many of these controversial subjects, my brain feels like a GPS unit, repeatedly saying, "Recalculating" and sometimes even "Turn around when possible." This is why I take care to hold no positions, and appreciate being intelligently challenged on any point. If something comes to my attention that makes me rethink or correct anything I've written, I am more than happy to rebut myself on these pages." Randy Oliver