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M Bush on Treatment-Free

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61K views 209 replies 35 participants last post by  squarepeg 
#1 ·
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DFKqgWuCBA

Just a video of Michael Bush I came across that I thought was a really good watch. Pretty much everything that's always being said here only being said on video by Bush.
 
#3 · (Edited)
I watched this.

Do we let nature take its course and flip a coin that "genetics" will allow us to succeed, or do we intervene with technology and destroy the balance of the hive.

The problem is either way you go there is no guarantee of success. There is hardly a prayer that you will even succeed for a year - a lot of people do not. I am sure those people want to have fun, and have a rewarding hobby or successful business. As I write this there are at least two threads of "what happened to my hive?" from well meaning beekeepers that have done what has been taught to them.

Hope is not a strategy. The hope that if I do nothing it will all work out, or even the hope that if I do everything it will work out.

Watching this video is discouraging.

I am not seeing it.
 
#5 ·
I watched this.

Do we let nature take its course and flip a coin that "genetics" will allow us to succeed, or do we intervene with technology and destroy the balance of the hive.
Well, for thousands of years this is how the species has survived without human intervention. I try to think of it like this. If I as an individual were to take antibiotics every day to kill off any of the bad bacteria in my stomach or system it would definitely kill off all of the bad bacteria in my system, however, it would also kill off all of the good bacteria essential to a healthy productive digestive system. I would be gaining the result I wanted by killing the bad bacteria at the cost of killing off all the good bacteria in my system and upsetting my bodies natural balance. Doesn't seem like much of a pay off when my body is able to naturally take care of the bad bacteria.

The problem is either way you go there is no guarantee of success. There is hardly a prayer that you will even succeed for a year - a lot of people do not. I am sure those people want to have fun, and have a rewarding hobby or successful business. As I write this there are at least two threads of "what happened to my hive?" from well meaning beekeepers that have done what has been taught to them.
Life and beekeeping in general are dynamic not static. If you want to have a fun and rewarding hobby but one that has little to no risk take up solitaire. Pretty rewarding seeing those cards fall across the screen when you win and you have nothing but time invested in it to be sad about when you lose a game. Beekeeping, on the other hand, is one of the most fun and rewarding things I have ever done. Is it a hobby paved with hard lessons learned? Absolutely. Would it feel as rewarding if I hadn't overcome as many problems and worked extremely hard to get to the point where I was? Of course not, if anybody could do it and it was as easy as sitting in a bingo parlor everyone would be doing it. It's not. It requires work, it requires a drive to succeed, and it requires a hunger for knowledge. Unfortunately it also requires a taste for disappointment. It sucks opening a hive only to find they have dwindled to nothing and will undoubtedly die but THEN WHAT? What do you do from there, throw in the towel and cry how it was too hard or buy two packages next year and learn how to make a nuc and rear queens so you've got a backup plan? Personally I'd buy two packages and see how I could manipulate this dynamic system to a way that's beneficial for myself and the system.

Hope is not a strategy. The hope that if I do nothing it will all work out, or even the hope that if I do everything it will work out.

Watching this video is discouraging.

I am not seeing it.
Solomon could chime in on this and give you a bit better viewpoint than I could on the successful treatment free beekeepers but I don't know of any of them that are just sitting around on their hands hoping things turn out right. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh or pessimistic, but fools sit around and hope things turn out right. People who are serious about managing their colonies treatment free have done the leg work (yeah it requires work like anything in life you want to be successful at), they have done the reading and the research on what it takes. They have intentionally bought hygienic stock that is disease resistant, they have managed their colonies so that the bees don't start out behind on the race but with the best advantage possible. No you're not seeing it not because it's not there but because you don't want to see it and you would rather be a defeatist about it. Watching this video is not discouraging, watching this video should be enlightening. It has been said elsewhere in this forum that those who cannot do something should not try to dissuade and tell the others they can't do it as well when they are already doing it. The time for can't is over, the time for can and will begins when you stop whining about it and start actively trying to achieve that goal; however, I tell you. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.
 
#4 ·
I didn't know about the effects of the essential oils on bacteria and I've added that to the sugar syrup I fed to my bees. Other than that, I haven't treated them at all this year (my first year with bees). I will see if they survive our cold Missouri winter. But whether they survive or not, I tend to agree with not treating so I don't end up eating the medication through their honey or comb. I think it's doable. After all, there are feral bees that continue to survive without our help.
 
#8 ·
Actually, some human populations have developed a resistance to malaria...and it wasn't developed by taking antibiotics daily. Sickle cell anemia has very unpleasant side effects (sometimes fatal, often very painful), but it does provide resistance to malaria....which is why it is relatively common in some populations that have been challenge d with malaria.

Deknow
 
#10 · (Edited)
Actually, some human populations have developed a resistance to malaria...and it wasn't developed by taking antibiotics daily.
Didn't mean to imply that taking antibiotics aided in developing resistance to malaria. It's just what I have to do to keep from catching it, living in an active area.
I am not sure that a genetic blood disorder would be classified as developing a resistance... again, I am not a doctor or biologist.
 
#9 ·
Personally I'd buy two packages and see how I could manipulate this dynamic system to a way that's beneficial for myself and the system.
The phenomena "myself" is the very culprit on this planet and must be the first thing to be treated with a high dose of mindfulness. Only then will all the puzzles fall into their natural place. I, Me, Mine must cease to be, for wisdom to rise. The reasoning mind is overrated!

Thanks for the link I already embeded it on my blog.

I would be very interested in hearing of someone who has had a single hive that has survived untreated with unbroken lineage (queen to her next generation biological daughter) for 3 years (5 would be better). Now I know a hive can be manipulated to make this work, but I am talking naturally.
Erik Osterlund from Sweden has colonies which are treatment-free for 5 years now. He is a small cell beekeeper. He told me that this is not easy. One must have no other beekeepers in the 3 km radius and breed the strongest colonies, even buy some good treatment free Queens.

I though of having only 2-3 hives treatment-free (let to their own device) but now I understand that without actualy breeding the bees each year yourself, treatment free bees will never come to be. A treatment free beekeeper is to be actualy a bee-breeder (which is the actual word for a beekeeper in Scandinavia, Biodlare).

The problem starts when like me you live in an area with beeks treating their hives religiously. I know we will cause a genetic war but I must hope for them to get along in time.
 
#11 ·
Erik Osterlund from Sweden has colonies which are treatment-free for 5 years now. He is a small cell beekeeper. He told me that this is not easy. One must have no other beekeepers in the 3 km radius and breed the strongest colonies, even buy some good treatment free Queens.
Yes I can see where one could achieve a somwhat successful program, where they are isolated and have some respite from the biological pressures most of the rest of us face - more like the difference between living in the middle of an industrial city or in the country. I realize that this is a very general remark and may be purely anecdotal.
 
#14 ·
Hi Deknow,
that is nice to hear. I would expect their Drones would downgrade the genes of your newly mated Queens but I can of course be wrong.
How do your neighbour beeks react to you not treating? Here in Sweden its a HUGE taboo to say that you are not treating. I was even called an animal abuser and that people like me should not be allowed keeping bees by the law :rolleyes: since we dont try to "SAVE" them from the "EVIL" Varroa and that our un-treated bees/drones will infect all their hives too. Ignorance is indeed deeply ingrained into our minds.

Regards
 
#17 · (Edited by Moderator)
Why do you have to go there. I made a simple statement about an observation I had as a young man and you have to come and basically call it untrue with absolutely no idea of the circumstances or my observations. If you wanted to prove that you know more than me, congratulations. That was hard.

I am glad you have broken the code on how to raise bees. I am in search of the same thing.
 
#23 ·
I am a first year beekeeper. I started treatment free and remain so. I have 5 hives. 1 package, 3 swarms and a cutout. All are doing well. I successfully did a split, but later messed it up so I combined it with another hive. I keep a close eye on my bees and take measures when required to make sure they remain strong. I think painting all first year beekeepers with a broad brush is a little unfair. As a biologist, I have heard Michael Bush speak, and what he says makes a great deal of sense. I also listen to people like Sol, and local experts to find out what I should be doing from time to time to help my bees. That is why I am planning to raise as many queens as I can next year, catch swarms, and select for strong, productive, and pest free colonies.

Ted
 
#26 ·
I keep a close eye on my bees and take measures when required to make sure they remain strong. I think painting all first year beekeepers with a broad brush is a little unfair. As a biologist, I have heard Michael Bush speak, and what he says makes a great deal of sense. I also listen to people like Sol, and local experts to find out what I should be doing from time to time to help my bees. That is why I am planning to raise as many queens as I can next year, catch swarms, and select for strong, productive, and pest free colonies.

Ted
Ted,

What measures do you take?

You really should listen to all and learn what you can from each, the good and the bad. If you only listen to those that mirror your beliefs, you never grow beyond your own limitations.

Is Albuquerque a AFB area? If so, you need to be very careful with your queen rearing program.
 
#32 ·
I guess I wonder if a guy has to go ‘all in’ one method or the other. I got a handful of hives here, work with a B in Law on the west side of town and am going to expand to another yard just up the mountain a piece. I figured this year I was on the verge of losing two hives so I treated them. That gives me 3 that I can move up the mountain. Of the 4 in the west end of town lost two full size that gives 2 on the west. If I continue this than the yards further east from home should develop better resistance. Obviously not 100% treatment free but I am into moderation and this seems to be the line between the two. As already stated, replacing all my stock every year is not an option. Pull my new queens from the east?
 
#33 ·
So how does a new beekeeper succeed in treatment free? Solomon says (for him at least) that treetment free is not only without chemicals but also without manipulation. The only thing left is climate, equipment, the bees, and the "management" (not manipulation). Climate you can't do anything about. Equipment is pretty much the world standard Lang and frame. Bees pretty much fall into the catagory of "get the best you can" or catch what you can. Which leaves us with management and there are as many ways as there are hives it seems.

I guess my problem is trying to understand what is the definition of achieving success? Is it starting with five and hundreds of deadouts later having 20?

Solomon, nice website.
 
#36 ·
Equipment is pretty much the world standard Lang and frame.
For what it's worth, I also use upper entrances and small cell foundation and several hives have narrow frames as well. I can not attribute any of my successes to narrow frame as it is new, but some successes I attribute somewhat to small cell and upper entrances.


Is it starting with five and hundreds of deadouts later having 20?
Is this your experience? I'd love to hear your story.


Solomon, nice website.
Thank you. I will be updating it again when my master's is completed. I have some results to report and modifications to make to my method. I'm also going to add the chicken section now that the chicken business line is up and running. My chickens are treatment-free as well by the way, as long as you don't define eating the weak ones as a treatment.:)
 
#34 ·
For me success is something I hope to achieve "next Year." I'm trying to get there by having multiple yards, some that get treatments when called for and some that don't. I try to do justice to the IPM concept. In the yards that don't get treated I've tried a variety of stocks and will probably continue to as long as my health, inclination and wallet hold out.

At the peak of the summer I had close to 40 colonies. I'm not sure where what the count is today. 21 degrees here this morning.
 
#35 ·
I'm a new beekeeper so my experience is severely limited but I bought two hives this spring from a local guy and along with them came a host of medications, basically to cover the range of common maladies. My intention is to be treatment free and catch swarms and do removals or make splits to replace losses. What I did notice is that the purchased hives that had previously been medicated were basket cases. I lost the queen in both this summer and the hive was unable to raise a new one. Due to inexperience one turned laying worker on me which I was able to rectify by combining with a queenright nuc. I have to think that part of the reason for this failure is chemical residue in the combs, my other 7 hives have all new, clean comb and no problems so far.

Joel Salatin of Polyface farms did "treatment free" for the livestock on his farm and for a long time had losses greater than the industry in general would accept. Through selective breeding his herds don't need prophylactic antibiotic treatments to survive and has a better mortality rate without than industry standard. He too the hard road of high losses to get genetically superior breeding stock and has been very successful with it. People drive many hours to get organic, humanely raised meats from Polyface Farm.

It takes some serious stubbornness, good record keeping, and a better than average knowledge of biology but success can be had.
 
#43 ·
Parker, thanks for this last post of yours. It clears alot for me. I am also one of the first year beeks being infected with the treatment free ideal which is better i guess than going the well established status quo anti varroa treatment paranoia.
I have a few month to study the Queen breeding and increasing colonies by doing splits, artificial swarms and to build some nucs and a few more top bar hives.
I dont think i can buy treatment free bees in Sweden, but small cell bees i could find.
 
#44 ·
I wa in Sweden for a week back in July (Soderhamn area) didn't see a single honeybee. And I was looking, may have still been a bit cool. Did see a sign for a local apiary but didn't visit as I was already worried about getting lost in the countryside. What kind of beekeeping season do you have there?
 
#46 ·
I have a feeling that I am where I want to be. This winter's losses are almost guaranteed to be higher than last. It's hard to beat 9% with this many hives. I have reached the level of hives I want to keep so now work goes into refining the stock, and raising queens and nucs which can pay when honey doesn't come in.

I believe I am still making progress. I still have a mean hive or two, and I still have a few hives which are unproven and some which have not done what they should and will probably not survive the winter. But I have a method for increase down, and work continues on refining the plan for beginning beekeepers. I am certain the current plan could work, however, I cannot vouch for it because I cannot get nucs to survive the summer here. Nucs have an incredible propensity for drawing comb and putting in brood and therefore an excellent aptitude for increase, but small hives don't survive the summer here. I think it's a good plan, but just not for here. I need a plan that works well everywhere.

By the way, I heard a story on the radio about flooding problems in Norfolk this morning. I am a Civil Engineer so I found the problem intriguing.
 
#50 ·
Here's some relevant insights from Randy Oliver:
...that's the one where Randy uses the term "taliban" and "fatwa" to describe other beekeepers...while he tells everyone how bees should be kept.:rolleyes:
My point? There is nothing unnatural about using essential oils or organic acids as treatments against the varroa mite or other disease organisms. Putting such natural treatments in our hives is akin to the way that people have long used herbs and spices to repel and kill parasites, and to preserve food.
Really?

deknow
 
#53 ·
It is very difficult to get rid of the "profit orientated mind". Our "westernised culture" is solidified into personal gain, even if simply to help others just so to feel good about it is also a personal gain = success vs. failure. Fear of failure is the driving force towards the desire for success. All this creates much suffering, all this is the true source of suffering. May we all find courage to look into our own minds and make the true change in there.

I think this thread is starting to look very fragmented ;)
De-fragmentation needed! LOL
 
#55 ·
Randy pretty much nailed it though he may have been a bit too direct in his phrasing. To fully understand his tone you needed to hear the tone of many of the accusations directed at him.
 
#58 ·
Jim, anyone that sticks their neck out has accusations directed at them. Heck, I've been accused of working for evil chemical companies, had bad reviews of my book posted to amazon by folks that haven't read it, had my publisher threatened with litigation if our book wasn't pulled from the shelves...etc. and so on.
Randy is responsible for how he expresses himself...he was writing for a magazine/the internet, not addressing specific individuals who he don't agree with him.

deknow
 
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