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M Bush on Treatment-Free

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61K views 209 replies 35 participants last post by  squarepeg 
#1 ·
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DFKqgWuCBA

Just a video of Michael Bush I came across that I thought was a really good watch. Pretty much everything that's always being said here only being said on video by Bush.
 
#165 ·
But we know about the club house!

Seriously, what role do you ascribe to geographical location? My conclusion is that TF is easier to accomplish in some locals and that stocks are not yet commercially available that can survive everywhere. I recognize that you have speakers at your conference from all over - what are your thoughts on the conditions needed (or desirable) to succeed in TF beekeeping? (Success in this instance meaning that the bees over winter, thrive, and produce surplus honey for the beekeeper to harvest)
 
#164 ·
deknow

Les is a close associate her in N.M. I had no idea he had a pesitcide kill-off he never mentioned it. Roundup-up in an organic orchard ?? I have never heard of such a thing. I knew he lost a lost of bees last winter but this is certainly news to me.
 
#172 ·
I'll bite.

It should be stopped. We are taking everything the land can produce. And when it can't produce any more we pour junk on it to take away any natural competition from the crop we are trying to maximize. It is not sustainable. Eventually something will collapse (CCD?) and there will be nothing. At least for a while. Nature will repair herself after we are gone. In the mean time what happens to those who are left? I think this is way more problematic for our future than Global Warming.
If you think about it, we humans are in a hive. And it has contaminated wax in it, and we are treated with antibiotics, and there are Varroa and beatles. But we cannot change and we work like the worker bee until the hive is gone.
Unless we change, it's over. Maybe not in our lifetime, but in the next 200 years, there will be a collapse.

But hey, that is not our problem, right?
 
#174 ·
I would recommend reading this thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-Honey-and-the-threat-to-U-S-Beekeepers/page3

....lots of specifics of some of the bad practices (in your back yard, andrew) from reputable sources...as well as discussion on the market aspects.

Remember, "the industry" wants honey to remain a commidity...all things labeled "honey" of equal value. Who benefits? Well, if there is a consumer perception that honey is "pure", and you can buy cheap imported or domestic "honey" produced with low labor costs and questionable practices (ie. honey supers on with full HFCS feeders on top in the blueberries) and sell it as "pure honey" to a trusting american consumer, then you win big...this is the packing and importing end of the industry, as well as some of the larger domestic operations with "low labor costs".

Beekeepers with higher costs and a higher quality product (via testing, practices, etc) can't compete in a commiditized system...Imagine you are still in school, and you are taking a class. At the end of the semester, the teacher asks the class if they would rather have the entire class graded on a pass/fail basis, or with letter grades. If you are getting an A, you want letter grades (why would you want to get the same "pass" as someone who deserves a C-?)......If you are getting a C-, you are going to want a "pass". The lower the quality honey you are selling, the bigger the incentive to have all honey considered equal.

deknow
 
#182 ·
I would recommend reading this thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-Honey-and-the-threat-to-U-S-Beekeepers/page3

....lots of specifics of some of the bad practices (in your back yard, andrew) from reputable sources...as well as discussion on the market aspects.
deknow
Thank you Dean for the link. I drive around in the spring taking pictures from the road of migratory hives. I'll have to look back at those pictures to see if there are any supers. I know from personal knowledge that Mike and Maine's Bee Inspector are good friends. It does not surprise me that Mike has the first hand information he shared in his thread, depressing though I find it. [disclosure: much of my stock comes from Mike]

Weather conditions during the Blueberry pollination season are often lousy with the bees unable to fly because of wet and cold. Blueberries are a poor source of nectar, and bees on the barrens are at risk for starving. That doesn't excuse feeding with supers on; only shows that feeding while on Blueberrries is not uncommon. It is a tricky time of year here - the Shad and the wild apples have finished blooming, dandelions are pretty much gone - and colonies are expected to be robust and populous in order to complete their pollination mission.

I was not previously aware of feeding with honey supers on - I don't want to believe that it is a widespread practice - I will actively be looking for it next spring.
 
#184 ·
Hives don't move Mark. They don't. Swarms may go a couple miles, if that. They don't move 1000 miles in any direction in a year, much less 10. They are not migratory animals. You cannot expect them to be hunky dory if you move them to an entirely different climate all the time. They're not adapted for it. They're not "meant" to move.
 
#186 ·
but then neither do they move their combs around, nor do they donate comb, brood, and resources to those that would have it. (and let's don't forget that wild bees aren't force fed a less than optimal diet).

are your manipulations any less invasive that trucking them around?
 
#191 ·
Metropropolis

It would be my understanding that your reference to a so called “movement” is most applicable to this local thread in which it is contained, and not necessarily associated with a larger national movement of treatment free beekeepers here and elsewhere. Surely within the greater scope of a treatment free philosophy you will find numerous schools of thought and beliefs that are well thought out and recognized. My point is that contrary to what a few individuals have chosen to define on a website involving 2600 active members does not necessarily encompass the overall beliefs of many thousands of very successful beekeepers who find not the time or the desire to profess their personal beliefs on a website. As far as any sort of general agreement about what constitutes “treatment free beekeeping’ good luck with that. Remember this is beekeeping. I personally try to stay well read, open minded, and well informed in those areas that interest me. I do not use any treatments of any kind as a personal choice because it currently works for me, but I would not flip out emotionally if I chose to experiment with a form of treatment if I felt the need arose. I do enjoy the numerous posts from many of the well respected beekeepers here that didn’t just fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I have always felt that we all have something to learn by listening to others in a democratic forum established for a common good to procreate the art of keeping bees in a healthy environment.
 
#196 ·
Also, it is likely possible to find a way to badmouth just about any food that we can buy, be it almonds, meat, bread, whatever. Honey is just another product of many. At this time the general public see honey as "good", largely down to a romantic view of a beehive in a scenic, natural setting, hard at work visiting flowers. This view has been actively propogated by beekeepers of the past, but with enough bad publicity there is no guarantee the public will keep this view.
 
#198 ·
...and those of us who actually live up to the "romantic view of a beehive", and who make sacrifices to do so, we should let the "industry" bank on our reputation? ...should continue to mislead our customers into believing what they do and what we do is the same?
News flash....for those of us not making a living in pollination, people who buy honey pay our bills (and the bills of our suppliers). I treat my customers (be they at the farmers market, over the internet, or through a large retail chain) with respect. I don't do business with people who willfully mislead me to make a buck....how you treat your customers is your business, but I will do my best to educate my customers the best I can. I tell them the truth.

As I tried to point out earlier, it's only the bad actors that benefit from the good reputation of honey in general, and the misconception by the public of where it comes from.

deknow
 
#207 ·
I generally don't like to post our powerpoint slides...they are just the outline for a talk, and are easy to misinterpret. This is a version of what we talk about to bee clubs when they want to hear about treatment free beekeeping. There is too much here for me to commit to answering every question, or clarify every point...it is generally done in 1.5 hours, but probably deserves 4.
http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/articles/103-a-work-in-progress
deknow
 
#208 ·
Very nice, Dean!

One question. Your definitioin excludes feeding with sugar syrup. As a first year beekeeper this year, I had to feed a late summer cutout. I had no honey available for feeding, so of course I used sugar. My preference is to avoid feeding whenever possible and to feed honey, if necessary, but it just wasn't possible. I don't feel like I am breaking any treatment free standards by feeding these bees sugar syrup. Have I violated your principles by doing this?

Ted
 
#209 ·
We don't feed sugar. We recommend that a new package should be fed sugar...I would say the same for a late season cutout that needs food. We use honey for these things (packages this year each got a deep frame of honey), but unless you have your own honey to use, I don't recommend it.

Again, there are simply too many things that are only hinted at in the slides to address them all, or to address them in depth. ...my intention of posting it is mostly to show that in order to discuss what we are doing, you really need 4 hours...unless you can talk real fast :) ...and that what we are talking about is far, far from "toss 'em in a box and leave 'em alone".

deknow

deknow
 
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