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M Bush on Treatment-Free

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61K views 209 replies 35 participants last post by  squarepeg 
#1 ·
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DFKqgWuCBA

Just a video of Michael Bush I came across that I thought was a really good watch. Pretty much everything that's always being said here only being said on video by Bush.
 
#113 ·
I watched the video (thank you) and have followed Michael Bush practices beginning a few months after I became a beekeeper.

I still feel a little thrown off at times from local beekeepers with years of experience. This coincidently happened the day before I saw this thread and now had the opportunity to read the whole thread.

I'm at 3 1/2 years with my hives. I was told early this week that the problems with varroa will begin in hive's 4th year. He talked about all the chemicals coming into the hive even without my adding more, and that treating for varroa is the best thing for them.

I am not going to treat, and this thread and video put my mind at ease that I am not abusing my hives by NOT treating. I don't put chemicals in my hives and the only time I feed is in hives that need to build comb. I leave them plenty of stores and keep one hive with back up stores just in case. I only use smoke when absolutely necessary.
Thanks.
 
#117 ·
I was told early this week that the problems with varroa will begin in hive's 4th year.
It sounds like someone was trying to sell you on treating. If it's your first year, they'll die in your second year. If it's your second year, they'll die in your third year and so on. If there is any evidence for a specific year, I'd say it would be the second year. Bad percentages in first winter for a package too, in my humble experience.
 
#114 ·
bevy, i have read that too, about the fourth year. i'm not sure where that came from, or why that would be the case. good work on keeping your bees healthy!

m bush is one of my all time beekeeping heroes. it was really neat to be able to put a face and a voice with the name and all of the pearls of wisdom.
 
#128 ·
I don't know why the word "Certified" is even included in the title of the VA Master Beekeeper Program. A person wanting to keep bees in VA does not need a certificate or need to be a Master Beekeeper to keep bees in VA.

I don't know how long ago the VA Beekeepers Association was established, but beekeeping has been practiced in VA longer than any other State in the Union. Just thought you'd like to know.
 
#130 ·
From what I can see the Master Beekeeping certification programs are primarily interested in promoting knowledge in the Beekeeper community. Can a candidate recognize foul brood, respond accurately and favorably to the beekeeping industry for questions about swarms, etc, demonstrate an ability to deal with a wide range of honey bee issues like "What should I do about the bees that live in a hole outside my back door?" and it is late August and a beekeeper says "I think I have foul brood: There is a stench coming from my bee yard." And knowing how the various medications are used is an important part of the knowledge expected of a Master Beekeeper. There is much more to most Master Beekeeper programs - Ann Harmon has had a series of articles published in Bee Culture the last few months on the various master beekeeping programs.

I am likely to take the master beekeeper exams at the EAS meeting in 2013.

[Set opinion on]

Why isn't treatment free beekeeping promoted better in master beekeeping programs? TF is far from mainstream. Leading proponents of TF are often portrayed as unscientific or anti-science zealots. Many of the leading TF people, including some posting on this forum, are "lone wolfs" and are content to keep their focus on their own operations and not the larger beekeeping community.

The master beekeeper programs have developed out of the history of keeping bees primarily in Langstroth hives. Things are changing slowly and MB candidates should be able to identify a Warre or TBH and describe how they are used, and what the goals are for using those types of hives. I haven't seen any indication that TF beekeepers are thought less of than beekeepers who choose to treat, but there is an expectation (prejudice) that TF Beekeepers are not showing all their cards or rather describing their results with less than full transparency.

There are great parallels between the organic farming movement and TF beekeeping. Namely that it takes a long time and a lot of work to take an idea that the general population dismisses as whacked and demonstrate that there is some validity to it. Building on concepts that the general population already understands like the need for decent habitat is perhaps a good place to start.

TF Beekeeping will not be represented as many on this forum would like to see it represented in Master Beekeeping Programs until positive results are consistently, regularly and verifiably documented.

The fact that this forum exists tells me that the journey has started. It will be a long road though.

[Set opinion off]
 
#131 ·
[Set opinion on]

Why isn't treatment free beekeeping promoted better in master beekeeping programs?

[Set opinion off]
First of all, what is [Set Opinion On] and [Set Opinion Off], another way of quoting? I have never seen that before. What is the source of the quote?

Perhaps Treatment Free Beekeeping isn't part of most Master Beekeeper Courses because it is not a set method and how diseases and pests are addressed is not uniformely agreed upon w/in the Treatment Free Community or it is simply a matter of "leave it alone, it'll take care of itself." Which is not satisfying to those who have been keeping bees for a long time.
 
#136 ·
"Why is TF beekeeping not supported better in master beekeeping programs"?

Here is how it shapes up for me. Treatment free is the beekeeping version of Veggan, Tree huggers, Naturalist, whatever you want to call it. It varies in it's details considerably even within the group itself. I am talking about the thinking overall of the group not just bees. Followers can range from mild such as those that try to garden with no pesticides to extremely radical such as those that will make villages from mud huts and live with home made wood burning stoves. See this link for an example. Also called sustainable living. http://www.aprovecho.net/

Such movements an lifestyles are considered radical. Much of what they teach and believe seems to have a heavy element of wishing about it. They tend to minimize the negatives and accentuate the positives or even worse simply make up results out of pure hope. In large this inaccurate portrayal of their results is due to also being subjected to greater than ordinary criticism. They often feel they are expected to produce methods that perform to higher standards than the main stream for example. That main stream methods have accepted shortcomings in their systems. and yet minor flaws in their own are cause for rejection. etc.

Master bee programs woudl most likely not be associated with such efforts as it makes them subject to the same "Those people are crazy" attitude that the main stream tends to have. IN addition the programs would not promote the methods due to the tendency that the methods of such groups are not reliable. When asked to test the methods or offered the opportunity for others to test them. the response is usually and overwhelmingly a rejection.

Accurate or not. true or not. Treatment Free beekeeping does fit the model fairly well. It is radically different, places claims with little or no evidence, and resists being looked at to closely. people are simply told to try it and see for themselves.

I even see in this group that the TF advocates are now making efforts to establish a complete acceptance of the principals or be excluded. The person that woudl be interested in not treating by a schedule but managing by treating only when needed is not really welcome in their group. IT is no treatment at all ever or you are not a part. It is way I see that even the beekeepers practice this radical irresponsible promotion and recruitment of there ideas. IT is more about control of others, than better beekeeping.

So the final reason I see programs to not support TF beekeeping is that it is not better beekeeping. it may very well not be recognized as methods of beekeeping at all.
 
#154 ·
Such movements an lifestyles are considered radical. Much of what they teach and believe seems to have a heavy element of wishing about it. They tend to minimize the negatives and accentuate the positives or even worse simply make up results out of pure hope.
Heartily agreed.

95% of "Treatment Free beekeeping" seems to consist of preaching to others the ills of treatments, and very little is about sharing actionable methods to get there. Actual success rate is difficult to establish: Once one factors out the hordes of "First year treatment free" beekeepers, one is left with a handful of success stories remaining. These success stories are can be difficult to evaluate, given no consistent meaning of what "no treatments" means.

It is to the advantage of the TF movement to sort the true-successes from the wishful-successes, and take steps to understand the factors involved.

Randy Oliver's information gathering initiative is a step in that direction.
 
#158 ·
It is to the advantage of the TF movement to sort the true-successes from the wishful-successes, and take steps to understand the factors involved.
Ramona and I take this very seriously when we plan our conference every year. Chris Baldwin is a migratory beekeeper (almonds and all) that have been off mite treatments for years (has used some antibiotics in recent past for persistent EFB). Les Crowder, a commercial TBH beekeeper (who used to pollinate almonds with TBHs before his hives were hit with roundup overspray in an organic orchard, and author of a new TBH book), Erik Osterlund from Sweden, Michael Bush, Dee Lusby, Sam Comfort, Kirk Webster, Corwin Bell.....there are two good books on solid treatment free beekeeping (michael bush's and ours...along with Les's TBH book, which is also treatment free).
I can't tell other people what to do. I can't tell other people what they consider treatment free. I can't tell other people not to treat their bees. I can't herd "treatment free beekeepers" into a group message...and i wouldn't want to. What is the best part of the conferences is that there is much disagreement, and many different approaches. I can state my opinion online or in print...the whole point of a conference is to hear many sides and many experiences. I can't do much more than finance and plan a curriculum for 6 days...what else do you think I should do?

deknow
 
#188 · (Edited)
what else do you think I should do?
Please do not take criticism of a movement as criticism you - You have done so much, and deserve nothing but credit.

It is not my place to criticize anything you've done - Only to offer appreciation for all that you've learned and shared.

I do hope the movement eventually comes to a general agreement as to what constitutes TF beekeeping. Currently there seems to be a lot of noise and misunderstanding generated by eager participants who emphasize ideology over experience.

Dismiss this statement if it is unhelpful.
 
#137 ·
The closest thing to TF that is discussed at beginner classes in my neck of the woods is sugar dusting. They snicker when they mention that too. It's the local master keepers that are teaching the classes. They won't even say there are some people having success. In our local google group someone asked why most of the speakers at EAS were TF or heading that way and being successful. The VP of the MSBA said he's heard it's possible but that none of these folks "write anything down" and are "not scientists" so there is no reason to believe they are actually doing anything sucessfully. He also said it's easier and cheaper in the long run to treat. I'm going to plug along doing my best where I am with what I have. Having nearly zero local support is disheartening.
 
#139 ·
The closest thing to TF that is discussed at beginner classes in my neck of the woods is sugar dusting.
you are not far from us....we are teaching both a beginners and advanced beekeeping course in Boston (at the intercontinental Hotel) on Monday nights in January. We offer a 6 day treatment free beekeeping conference in July (in Leominster, ma)...and we have some treatment free bees in Portland. Beeuntoothers.com

Deknow
 
#138 ·
I'm baffled by what I am reading here. The worst thinformation that could happen to "treatment free beekeeping" would be to have it taught in a master beekeeper program by someone that does not understand and/or practice it. Would you take a beekeeping class from a non beekeeper?
with regards to transparency, I'm not sure what you are expecting. There are at least two conferences every year, Michael has answered a billion or so questions from others, built a website that everyone visits, wrote a rather comprehensive book, and has been speaking to more bee clubs than anyone else on the circuit.
We run (and finance) a conference every year, wrote a book, speak regularly at bee clubs, support our local club, and teach both beginning and advanced beekeeping....we have a teaching apiary in downtown Boston where we do weekly hive openings with anyone who is interested....
How transparent do you expect us to be?

As far as the commercial viability of treatment free beekeeping, we have three suppliers who are treatment free....they all make their livings with the bees, and they are paid a healthy premium for their product.

Deknow
 
#140 ·
The funny and sad part of it was, Michael Bush was a speaker at the state meeting this year and a couple weeks prior had given a talk and open hive session just outside of Portland. He signed my copy of his book. I wish I'd asked him why he's never "written anything down"...... Like I said, painful for a beginner. They just don't want to see what's there.

DeKnow, I'm already on the list for a couple of your queens net year. My new nucs are coming from Kirk Webster. I'm thankful for you folks that have put the time and effort in. I'd be lost and on the treatment wagon otherwise.
 
#145 ·
.....if you ask people who buy honey if they think that most bees are fed sugar and hfcs and that most bees are medicated, you will invariably get the answers of "what?" And "how do you medicate a bee?" To the customers, most assume that all bees are treatment free.
Most of our customers and prospective customers who buy honey from another beekeeper or health food store assure us that their beekeeper would never do such a thing....there I'd a disconnect between production and consumer perception. Which is fringe?

Deknow@netzero.net.
 
#170 ·
.....if you ask people who buy honey if they think that most bees are fed sugar and hfcs and that most bees are medicated, you will invariably get the answers of "what?" And "how do you medicate a bee?" To the customers, most assume that all bees are treatment free.
Negative advertising is always bad for an industry as a whole.
 
#146 ·
That is so true what you say deknow.
I have a friend who makes tinctures, salvae, soaps, etc ... She was very proud of her beeswax salvae which she made from foundation wax sheets. When i explained her that all wax foundation has herbicides and pesticides in it she was shocked. I did explain her that it is easy to get your own free comb in a top bar hive. The next she did is build a KTBH and will get bees next year. Its a start. One step at a time. Keep on informing the public and follow your heart no matter who sais what.
 
#151 ·
That is so true what you say deknow.
Che, I have a lot of European tourists come by my tent...Greek, Italian, French, Swedish......they all laugh at the idea that a beekeeper would feed honey or medicate bees.....certainly the beekeepers tin their country are all natural and organic.
I have had several Moroccan customers....they come to my table and ask if I have honey from bees that are not fed sugar....I consistently hear that the quality of honey produced in Morocco was excellent ....until the beekeepers started to feed sugar. Now they come to us and send it home. I had a Saudi Arabian man who was headed home later in the day...tasted the honey, and bought a case of 24 1/2lb jars to bring home for gifts.

deknow
 
#147 ·
When I tell someone I am a beekeeper, 9 out of 10 people will ask me how the honey bees are doing with the mites and diseases affecting them, so it is good that they are aware of that, but outside of that, they don't realize that bees are fed syrup and hfcs like deknow said, and that they are medicated by most beekeepers, and most commercially available beeswax is tainted with the medication residue. One of the health food stores where I sell my honey, they are extremely particular about the ingredients in everything that is on their shelves, if I used anything on my bees that they didn't like, and was honest with them about it, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't be selling honey there anymore. Obviously, they were thrilled when I assured them that my bees and honey were untainted with anything that shouldn't be there naturally. John
 
#148 ·
Honey is a food and it is important to remember that when selling it.

I have never had a customer ask me about treatments I use on my bees or any potential residues in the honey.

I deliver unheated lightly strained honey to a wholesale account and it promptly is heated in an effort to slow down crystallization.

I attend a fair put on by an organization that does organic certification and the big honey vendor there is a migratory commercial operation that uses medications.

I have hives located on an organic farm with a farm store and they sell the honey of the above vendor. I couldn't begin to supply them with the quantity they sell.

My point is, the average consumer hears "honey" and thinks all is well. Very few people in this neck of the woods are concerned with what might be in it.
 
#150 ·
I don't think that there is anyone who doesn't think that everything we put on our table is contaminated with something, pesticides, herbicides, antibiotics, or hormones, they just accept it and don't question it, it's the new normal. Honey is just another food item, it gets thrown into the shopping cart along with everything else, most people don't look at it any differently. There is a growing number of consumers who go out of their way to educate themselves on what is going on with our food supply, and they seek out a more pure product, and will pay more for it. Hopefully this trend will continue. John
 
#152 ·
Depending upon what kind of a market you are selling to many people can be very well educated. In addition, I have always enjoyed exlaining the difference to those that might not be aware of raw honey vs. commercial grade honey. I do not mean to say that honey produced and bottled by commercial beekeepers is an inferior product, but what happens to it after it is sold in bulk might leave a lot to be desired. We have never had a problem here marketing our local N.M. honey as a premium grade product, because thats what it is. Our production and bottling standards is what sets us apart.
 
#153 ·
More and more people will eventually know about the truth. One day.
My first neighbourhad a swarm this summer settle under his roof and he simply let them be. Later they disapeared he said, probably rodents.
Anyway I said that i would like to check in spring if the nest is still there and he said theyprobably built that round thing.
I told him that wasps and hornets build the round nest and bees build wax comb.
He asked me in honest shock "can they on their own build the square wax comb!?"
There are many kids in Sweden who think the milk comes from the store and not from a chained cow.

I see many reasons for getting out of a city lifeand claiming some land which needs to be turned into Organic Soil once again.

This thread is suffering from great fragmentation LOL
 
#160 ·
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