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M Bush on Treatment-Free

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61K views 209 replies 35 participants last post by  squarepeg 
#1 ·
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DFKqgWuCBA

Just a video of Michael Bush I came across that I thought was a really good watch. Pretty much everything that's always being said here only being said on video by Bush.
 
#60 ·
Dean: I'm not going to try to speculate as to what may have led up to this analogy though I would agree any comparison to the Taliban is pretty harsh. I will say that that there is a lot of ideological intolerance associated with the whole treatment free issue and it cuts both ways.
 
#62 ·
Jim, I don't disagree....but at the same time, you've seen what I post...I'm pretty consistent in how I approach things, and although I have strong opinions, I try to see things from the perspective of others.

It is dishonest to take the worst examples of something (misguided motivation/implentation of treatment free beekeeping), and apply it to a whole movement. I will also tell you that our first year conference in Leominster with Dee Lusby, Erik Osterlund, Mike Palmer, Sam Comfort, etc. was referred to as a "cult meeting" by Randy...to an entire state beekeeping meeting about 100 miles from my home...this is not "tit for tat"....I've had some productive discussions with Randy, and we have provided each other with some research support here and there...it is just to point out that the attitude is not a new one.

Would it be fair of me to take the worst accounts I've heard of from the commercial beekeeping world for how bees are fed, and talk about how fed bees results in honey that is 30% sugar? ....or is the worst case the worst case?

There is a lot of good, solid advice and information about treatment free beekeeping. There are books, there are websites, and there are online discussions...some of which Randy has participated in. Yet, he ignored all of that in order to toss the term "beekeeping taliban" around by addressing only the worst of what he has seen.

If he didn't want to be judged harshly for writing that, he shouldn't have written it.

deknow
 
#64 ·
This forum is designed to shelter treatment free beekeepers from the constant attacks they receive from intolerant beekeepers. I have not called conventional beekeepers "lazy." I have not called their methods "poison" or "lies." Yet these exact epithets have been used against me and my methods. Now we have "Beekeeping Taliban." Where is the equal?

Every member of this website is allowed to use this forum (except for one that I know of) as long as they behave according to the rules which set the topic and decorum of the forum. That's not intolerant. That's regulation. It's necessary for civil discourse and every forum on this website is the same in that regard.
 
#68 ·
This forum is designed to shelter treatment free beekeepers from the constant attacks they receive from intolerant beekeepers.
i wasn't aware that those in the tfb camp felt they needed 'sheltering'.

from what i've been reading, it looks like they can hold their own pretty good. :)

personal attacks have no place here. open and spirited debate is what makes this site what it is.
 
#65 ·
I don't consider you the source of intolerance Sol. I don't agree with you on much but I respect your openness. If however you are suggesting that an intolerant element doesn't exist within the treatment free crowd then I suggest you must be living in a different world than me. I am not even saying it represents a majority only that harsh words are often directed at those who choose to treat. But then you know me, just one of those big commercial guys who just dumps chemicals in my hives without regard to......well you know how it goes.
 
#66 ·
...If however you are suggesting that an intolerant element doesn't exist within the treatment free crowd then I suggest you must be living in a different world than me.
I apologize, I don't think I was clear. I agree with the above...but I don't appreciate being placed into this category any more than you would appreciate being placed in with the worst of the worst commercial beekeepers.

It isn't fair or honest to paint the whole movement from the worst offenders...especially when there is quite a bit written from Michael Bush, Dennis Murell, myself, etc. This was Randy's choice, and he made it. It shouldn't be surprising that his words weren't universally revered.

deknow
 
#70 ·
so what is it?

constant attacks or wanting to talk about soft treatments.

why not do away with the litmus test, end the divisiveness, don't make it either/or ect.

pretty funny about the treatment free treatments. :)
 
#71 ·
so what is it? constant attacks or wanting to talk about soft treatments.
Who said there was a difference? There's nothing in the general rules that says you can't call someone else's point of view poison, or call their method "lazy beekeeping" or demand that they allow you to talk about whatever you want.
 
#72 ·
right! and all of the forums rock along just fine. profanity, personal attacks, ect. are dealt with as needed.

but the content is what it is.

i'm alright sol, kinda like the ground hog in 'caddy shack'.

just my .02, sorry if i fanned a flame.
 
#75 ·
Goodness, can this forum talk about treatment free beekeeping for a change...there is a lot of knowledge out there and many want to share it, but they always seem to have to defend themselves because they are actually making it work...sorry but all this is getting really old...and some of us are here to learn about treatment free beekeeping and those of you who only want to whine and complain about how difficult it is should just "listen" for a change...there are some great topics on this forum...this is not one of them.
 
#76 ·
I would be very interested in hearing of someone who has had a single hive that has survived untreated with unbroken lineage (queen to her next generation biological daughter) for 3 years (5 would be better). Now I know a hive can be manipulated to make this work, but I am talking naturally. Heck, I'll even expand that to a treated hive. Anybody Hear it from me i have 7 hives that are 5 + years old and 8-9 that are 3 years old never have a drop of dope added to them all foundationless and all have requeened by swarming every year they are all mutts
 
#77 ·
Part of the confusion I believe has to do with the concepts of "hard" and "soft" treatments. Some people (not me) consider soft treatments as consistent with their ideas of natural beekeeping. AFAIK organic standards allow for no additive treatments. Certified Naturally Grown allows some (Formic I think) as a transitional measure. CNG calls for some things that make no sense to me - like hive stands of a certain height. I can understand hive stand use to slow down predators like skunks - but my bees are already behind electric netting and so the requirement is solving a non-existent problem. Writing standards to cover all scenarios on a national basis must be quite the challenge!
 
#84 · (Edited)
I am glad this thread has brought out these views.

For a new person looking at starting beekeeping it is very confusing what is out there in the literature, internet, and forums. For me I learn by questioning. I question like I am on the outside looking in. No matter what the philosophy is, one needs to be able to stand up and defend it - prove to me why your way is better. That is where the "successful" definition comes in (however you want to measure it).
Now some may say they have nothing to prove to me and don't have to defend what they do or say. That is fine and you absolutely have that right, but if you are writing about it and sharing what you do, then when I ask, you should be able to answer.
My request to have whose share who have hives that are treatment free for 3-5 years is a genuine desire to guage who/how many are out there. Deepdown I want to believe that TFB is the way to go, but I have doubts. Why? Because we don't live that way. What I am learning is that we are trying to domesticate an undomesticateable (is that a word) insect. That is a tough mind shift to make. We have the medicines and treatments, and they work for humans, and livestock, etc. Why not bees?

Defending what one does is never fun. But sometimes it is neccessary, especially if you are bucking the status quo. And guess what? TFB is bucking! :)
 
#87 ·
Question, yes of course we must ask question, I agree BUT
Proof? If you go back and read all the wealth of excellent information posted by experienced (and successful) TFB on this forum and others I think the proof is simply there. If they are not treating and their bees are doing well.. is that not proof that it does work?
Defend? Why? It's works! healthy, happy bees!!YEAH!!
With all due respect I think you are looking for proof that it doesn't work.
For me, I can see that it is working, I am hungry for information, so tell me how, show me how, if it works for you, it can work for me! I know it is not easy, I know there will be some failures, but I WANT to be there! I refuse to use chemicals on my bees or my garden - and my garden grows.
TFB is bucking? Maybe so, who cares? If it doesn't work, why are there so many TFB out there?
Donna
Nova Scotia
 
#118 ·
For a new person looking at starting beekeeping it is very confusing what is out there in the literature, internet, and forums.
Yuup
For me I learn by questioning.
So do I
one needs to be able to stand up and defend it - prove to me why your way is better.
Nope, this is a forum
but if you are writing about it and sharing what you do, then when I ask, you should be able to answer.
Nope, that is a personal choice
We have the medicines and treatments, and they work for humans, and livestock, etc. Why not bees?
You should dig deeper into this though.

TFB is bucking
Not to people that are treatment free. To them it is natural and makes sense. To argue with somebody why they are treatment free is bucking. To ask and learn how they do it is the reason for this forum. If you need proof, you got a lot of work ahead of you.
 
#119 · (Edited)
Ace,
It is a forum. I look at it like we are sitting in a room and talking about bees. If you say something and I look at you and ask you a question about what you said, then you ought to answer. I guess you don't have too, but then people will quit speaking to you because you are there to say what YOU want, and not participate in a group conversation.
You agreed that a form of learning is by asking questions. Some questions are asking someone to substantiate what they are saying is fact. Proof. That's all it is. Not trying to put anyone against a wall and say "I got you"; just trying to see how you do it, and is this something I can try. Or maybe I have tried it and can tell you where the pitfalls are so you don't fall into one. Or it might be that it didn't work for me. In the end you can do what you want. I don't call that arguing.

You're right, to be here is a personal choice - free to leave at any time.

Not to people that are treatment free. To them it is natural and makes sense. To argue with somebody why they are treatment free is bucking. To ask and learn how they do it is the reason for this forum. If you need proof, you got a lot of work ahead of you.
It is still bucking the system. In Virginia there is a certification program. Study what they teach in order to pass the practical and written tests. I doubt if anyone would be allowed to pass that doesn't subscribe to the established treatments. Maybe they would, but that is not what I read in the study questions.
I do have a lot of work. Because this is like being pregnant, either you are or your not, there is no grey area. But when I get my bees I will know as much as I can, and go into this with both eyes wide open, knowing who to trust and who just has an agenda.
 
#88 ·
bbrowncods,

i think it's important to understand that treatment free beekeeping goes way beyond just not putting chemicals into the hive.

there are a lot of facets to keeping bees healthy, and a lot of variations on the theme.

if you haven't already, check out michael bush's website or order his book. spend some time reading what randy oliver's work has shown. be prepared to learn from your own experiences, (read here mistakes).

from what i have seen myself, it is very possible to achieve maintaining healthy colonies that don't require, or rarely require, a treatment intervention. especially for the hobbiest who has the time to invest in each individual hive.

as i have said, i view not using treatments as the end result of good solid beekeeping practices, rather than a means to that end. there are other views of course.....
 
#89 ·
bbrowncods,

if you haven't already, check out michael bush's website or order his book. spend some time reading what randy oliver's work has shown. be prepared to learn from your own experiences, (read here mistakes).
If I had bbrowncod's APO I could send him and his buddys back issues of Bee Culture and American Bee Journal. Maybe I will send some to a CAV Unit Commander in Afghanistan who I send honey to.
 
#100 ·
There is nothing mutually exclusive about moving bees and being treatment free. Heck we could easily do it but choose instead to reduce fall mite loads when the bees are brood less so that we have plenty of strong bees coming out of the winter for Almond pollination and The following seasons honey crop tests free of any mite treatment residues.We aren't doing anything radically different than those who constantly split their bees to stay ahead of the mite load. If we did that long term chances are we would have trouble maintaining our number of strong hives but then I really don't know that for sure.
 
#103 ·
Unless its a 3 day haul and or excess heat or cold is involved or you have massive confusion in a holding yard the act of moving in and of itself is fairly benign. We just moved a load of 800 hives and had them back out on location within 36 hours of loading and the bees are already finding a little fresh pollen on the first day they were set down.
No Sol I know of no one that has tried what I am suggesting only what my recent experience tells me imay be doable. Bear in mind we are replacing ALL our queens on a yearly basis and foregoing any spring mite treatments.
 
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