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  1. #181
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    Dec 2002
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    That's one point of view.

    They're "meant" to survive where they have become adapted.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  2. #182
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    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
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    2,903

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I would recommend reading this thread:
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ekeepers/page3

    ....lots of specifics of some of the bad practices (in your back yard, andrew) from reputable sources...as well as discussion on the market aspects.
    deknow
    Thank you Dean for the link. I drive around in the spring taking pictures from the road of migratory hives. I'll have to look back at those pictures to see if there are any supers. I know from personal knowledge that Mike and Maine's Bee Inspector are good friends. It does not surprise me that Mike has the first hand information he shared in his thread, depressing though I find it. [disclosure: much of my stock comes from Mike]

    Weather conditions during the Blueberry pollination season are often lousy with the bees unable to fly because of wet and cold. Blueberries are a poor source of nectar, and bees on the barrens are at risk for starving. That doesn't excuse feeding with supers on; only shows that feeding while on Blueberrries is not uncommon. It is a tricky time of year here - the Shad and the wild apples have finished blooming, dandelions are pretty much gone - and colonies are expected to be robust and populous in order to complete their pollination mission.

    I was not previously aware of feeding with honey supers on - I don't want to believe that it is a widespread practice - I will actively be looking for it next spring.
    Master Beekeeper (EAS) and Master Gardener (U Maine CE) www.beeberrywoods.com

  3. #183
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,201

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    That's one point of view.

    They're "meant" to survive where they have become adapted.
    Which is everywhere other than where they won't survive. I don't see why you made your original statement.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  4. #184
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    5,079

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Hives don't move Mark. They don't. Swarms may go a couple miles, if that. They don't move 1000 miles in any direction in a year, much less 10. They are not migratory animals. You cannot expect them to be hunky dory if you move them to an entirely different climate all the time. They're not adapted for it. They're not "meant" to move.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  5. #185
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    9,549

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Dewey View Post
    I was not previously aware of feeding with honey supers on - I don't want to believe that it is a widespread practice - I will actively be looking for it next spring.
    Feeding with honey supers on is not a crime. Selling the honey as honey is. I am not going to say this happens but it is possible that the honey in these supers is used for feed to expand other hives.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  6. #186
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,576

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Hives don't move Mark. They don't. Swarms may go a couple miles, if that. They don't move 1000 miles in any direction in a year, much less 10. They are not migratory animals. You cannot expect them to be hunky dory if you move them to an entirely different climate all the time. They're not adapted for it. They're not "meant" to move.
    but then neither do they move their combs around, nor do they donate comb, brood, and resources to those that would have it. (and let's don't forget that wild bees aren't force fed a less than optimal diet).

    are your manipulations any less invasive that trucking them around?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #187
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    9,549

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    They're not adapted for it. They're not "meant" to move.
    They have adapted like other insects have. There are mosquitoes in Alaska and mosquitoes in Florida. If you switched the two they probably wouldn't make it with the drastic change all at once. If you switched a thousand of each some might make it or maybe their genetics would. It is conceivable in my mind anyways that if you continually moved insects, bees particularly that they would adapt. Not so much for yours and mine. There has to be some technique in this line of business that increases your chance of success. I would not attempt it. Maybe you wouldn't but others have.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  8. #188
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta, CA
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    75

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    what else do you think I should do?
    Please do not take criticism of a movement as criticism you - You have done so much, and deserve nothing but credit.

    It is not my place to criticize anything you've done - Only to offer appreciation for all that you've learned and shared.

    I do hope the movement eventually comes to a general agreement as to what constitutes TF beekeeping. Currently there seems to be a lot of noise and misunderstanding generated by eager participants who emphasize ideology over experience.

    Dismiss this statement if it is unhelpful.
    Last edited by Metropropolis; 11-14-2012 at 01:19 PM.

  9. #189
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Bees aren't meant to survive everywhere. Hives are not meant to move. They're meant to survive in one place.
    Sorry Solomon. This just struck me similar to the idea that if man were meant to fly he would have wings.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  10. #190
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    They're not adapted for it. They're not "meant" to move.
    Okay, I get your point. It's just that it's contrary to my experience. There is almost nothing in the moving of hives of bees which I can point to that is detrimental to those hives. Sometimes some queens are lost for some reason. But the vast majority are fine.

    I guess you wouldn't buy queens from far away then?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  11. #191
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    Mar 2010
    Location
    Santa Fe, NM
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    671

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Metropropolis

    It would be my understanding that your reference to a so called “movement” is most applicable to this local thread in which it is contained, and not necessarily associated with a larger national movement of treatment free beekeepers here and elsewhere. Surely within the greater scope of a treatment free philosophy you will find numerous schools of thought and beliefs that are well thought out and recognized. My point is that contrary to what a few individuals have chosen to define on a website involving 2600 active members does not necessarily encompass the overall beliefs of many thousands of very successful beekeepers who find not the time or the desire to profess their personal beliefs on a website. As far as any sort of general agreement about what constitutes “treatment free beekeeping’ good luck with that. Remember this is beekeeping. I personally try to stay well read, open minded, and well informed in those areas that interest me. I do not use any treatments of any kind as a personal choice because it currently works for me, but I would not flip out emotionally if I chose to experiment with a form of treatment if I felt the need arose. I do enjoy the numerous posts from many of the well respected beekeepers here that didn’t just fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I have always felt that we all have something to learn by listening to others in a democratic forum established for a common good to procreate the art of keeping bees in a healthy environment.
    "Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay".....Krishnamurti

  12. #192
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    Aug 2012
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    Nova Scotia, Canada
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    54

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Riskybizz View Post
    Metropropolis

    I do enjoy the numerous posts from many of the well respected beekeepers here that didn’t just fall off the turnip truck yesterday.
    So do I which is why I keep coming back to read this thread, I try to ignore the rest of the "fluff". LOL

  13. #193
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...and the industry is best served by having customers be misinformed?
    Let's just say that it's better to focus on positives, rather than attempt to generate sales by badmouthing everybody else.

    Again, negative advertising is bad for an industry. I know this from a totally different industry I was in where negative advertising "wars" went on, and the general public eventually came to have a bad feeling about the whole industry.

    If somebody is running around telling everyone they can, that just about all honey, (except their own, of course), is adulterated with sugar, has poison in it, is made by bees that aren't treated right, etc. It is just a matter of time till the general public take a dim view on all honey in general, as the word and the gossip is passed around, and twisted/exaggerated/misunderstood, in the process.

    What if somebody was going around saying, don't buy Deans honey. He doesn't control disease and large numbers of his hives die. A horrible death for the bees. Get my honey, I care for my bees.

    Would not telling the public you lose a lot of hives mean they are misinformed? Or have you just chosen to leave out the negatives.

    Now that's hypothetical, but, get my point? Negative advertising is a bad thing.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #194
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,641

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Feeding with honey supers on is not a crime. Selling the honey as honey is. I am not going to say this happens but it is possible that the honey in these supers is used for feed to expand other hives.
    ...the national honey board assures us that honey is not adulterated after it is extracted from the comb....nothing about before it is extracted!

    deknow

  15. #195
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    9,549

    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Are you kidding me!
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  16. #196
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Also, it is likely possible to find a way to badmouth just about any food that we can buy, be it almonds, meat, bread, whatever. Honey is just another product of many. At this time the general public see honey as "good", largely down to a romantic view of a beehive in a scenic, natural setting, hard at work visiting flowers. This view has been actively propogated by beekeepers of the past, but with enough bad publicity there is no guarantee the public will keep this view.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  17. #197
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Hives are not meant to move. They're meant to survive in one place.
    Are you kidding me?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  18. #198
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Also, it is likely possible to find a way to badmouth just about any food that we can buy, be it almonds, meat, bread, whatever. Honey is just another product of many. At this time the general public see honey as "good", largely down to a romantic view of a beehive in a scenic, natural setting, hard at work visiting flowers. This view has been actively propogated by beekeepers of the past, but with enough bad publicity there is no guarantee the public will keep this view.
    ...and those of us who actually live up to the "romantic view of a beehive", and who make sacrifices to do so, we should let the "industry" bank on our reputation? ...should continue to mislead our customers into believing what they do and what we do is the same?
    News flash....for those of us not making a living in pollination, people who buy honey pay our bills (and the bills of our suppliers). I treat my customers (be they at the farmers market, over the internet, or through a large retail chain) with respect. I don't do business with people who willfully mislead me to make a buck....how you treat your customers is your business, but I will do my best to educate my customers the best I can. I tell them the truth.

    As I tried to point out earlier, it's only the bad actors that benefit from the good reputation of honey in general, and the misconception by the public of where it comes from.

    deknow

  19. #199
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    but I will do my best to educate my customers the best I can. I tell them the truth.
    deknow
    But does that extend to telling them the truth about your own business? I doubt it. IE, that along with not using chemicals, you lose a lot of hives, and the bees suffer in a slowly dwindling hive and eventually die a horrible death. And you allow that to happen, something I wouldn't even want to witness.

    Once you've put that on your label, (the public should be educated, right?) then you can feel free to continue your attacks on others. Long as they are true that is, there are some beekeepers selling honey tested as perfectly good, who have been caught up in your bad publicity.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #200
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    Default Re: M Bush on Treatment-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    But does that extend to telling them the truth about your own business? I doubt it. IE, that along with not using chemicals, you lose a lot of hives, and the bees suffer in a slowly dwindling hive and eventually die a horrible death. And you allow that to happen, something I wouldn't even want to witness.
    oh please.....on any unselfish level, the life of a bee hive is morally equivalent to the life of an ant colony....that any homeowner would poison, any farmer or gardener would plow under, and no one would mourn.
    But that aside, yes, I do tell my customers that we lose bees (as do our suppliers), as do all beekeeping operations large and small.

    Once you've put that on your label, (the public should be educated, right?) then you can feel free to continue your attacks on others. Long as they are true that is, there are some beekeepers selling honey tested as perfectly good, who have been caught up in your bad publicity.
    1. there is only so much that can fit on a label...but folks that self identify as vegans who visit our table at the market (yes, this is a somewhat self selecting group....hardcore vegans don't even want to talk about honey) generally feel good about the honey (and often buy it).
    2. a shirt that is made with slave labor can "test" the same as one produced by a free person being paid a reasonable salary. Two shampoos with equivilent ingredients can "test the same", yet one isn't tested on bunnies eyes.

    If a beekeeper who's honey "tests perfectly good" wants to be part of an industry that values their honey the same as honey that doesn't, and doesn't do anything to distinguish their product from something that is not equivalent, then they get what they deserve. If I see two iphone cases on ebay, they have the same picture, and the same description, I'm going to by the cheaper one. If one has better specs and costs a little more, then I have a choice.

    Anyone who's sales rely on their customers being misinformed is walking on eggshells...no matter how big the industry is.

    deknow

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