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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    dan, sorry i didn't have time to read all of the 'studies' you cited.

    i did look at the first one, which is not a study at all, but an article talking about a study.

    a quote from the 'article',

    "The phenomenon is described in two new studies published March 29 in Science. While they don’t conclusively explain global bee declines, which almost certainly involve a combination of factors, they establish neonicotinoids as a prime suspect."

    i think the state of affairs at this time is still that nobody 'knows'. being suspect does not equal knowing.

    the responsible approach would be to wait for the proof.

    the joint u.s./canadian study, which randy oliver discusses in the second link of my post #2, describes what may be the best attempt yet to show causality.

    there are no promises that this will be the final answer, the end all to end all, but hopefully it will help us by some way providing a piece to a very complex puzzle.
    Last edited by squarepeg; 10-22-2012 at 01:15 PM. Reason: spelling
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    I am not going to get into a "battle of goggle links " its just important to point out what we know and what we dont know. We know that there was an incident where malfunctioning planters exhausted toxic talc into the air and killed nearby bee hives. Thats old news and has been beaten to death because yes neonics kill insects that is what they are designed to do, but they arent designed to be used in that manner. What has never been proven by any study is that seed treated with neonics results in killing bees that work those plants months later. No direct link or "smoking gun" has ever been established showing that these bees bring back a toxic pollen or nectar that kills bees or shortens their life spans. I am open to the possibility that some link may be proven at some time in the future or that it may be a causitive agent when combined with other bee treatments applied by beekeepers but until that time I will withold judgement. Here is something that I can say with absolute certainty though. We operate thousands of hives in an area that has seen drastic increases of plantings of these crops over the past decade and I have not seen a deterioration of our bees during this time. The past two years have seen record plantings of neonic treated seeds in our area. If I had seen corresponding losses in our bees I would be among the most vocal in asking why this is happening. But our bees are better than they have ever been. Perhaps the pre-neonic days when foliar spraying routinely devastated our bee hives with a spray that simply killed any insect that happened to be in the field is just too fresh in my mind. In any case these are my real world experiences and I find them more significant than the arguments put forward by those who seem to insinuate that because they have a fundamental distrust of a particular company or industry that it therefore follows that all products that they produce must therefore be bad and that any evidence to the contrary are of course just predictable lies.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    gotta love that tag line jim!
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    Still waiting for a peer reviewed study that indicates that neonics kill hives in the real world, not a lab study. I agree totally with Jim's post. Neonics are an insecticide and kill insects. Last I knew bees were an insect. But I have hives beside corn fields that use treated seed and they are doing great. As long as the farmed doesn't start using talc when planting I feel my bees are safe. Might point out that Mike Palmer has bees in high corn areas and he reports no problems either.

  5. #25
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    May 2012
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    Maryville, tn, usa
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    “Neonicotinoid Pesticide Reduces Bumble Bee Colony Growth and Queen Production.” By Penelope R. Whitehorn, Stephanie O’Connor, Felix L. Wackers, Dave Goulson. Science, Vol. 335 No. 6076, March 30, 2012.

    Krupke CH, Hunt GJ, Eitzer BD, Andino G, Given K (2012) Multiple Routes of Pesticide Exposure for Honey Bees Living Near Agricultural Fields. PLoS ONE 7(1): e29268. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0029268

    Andrea Tapparo, Daniele Marton, Chiara Giorio, Alessandro Zanella, Lidia Soldà, Matteo Marzaro, Linda Vivan, Vincenzo Girolami. Assessment of the Environmental Exposure of Honeybees to Particulate Matter Containing Neonicotinoid Insecticides Coming from Corn Coated Seeds. Environmental Science & Technology, 2012; : 120217095058002 DOI: 10.1021/es2035152


    They are of course quoted Squarepeg within the article sorta of a more readable format (but since we didn't make it past the first) and I did say in my last post in quotes no less that this was "a cause" my oppinion from reading many studies.

    Cam- bee were collected from around hives in Ag areas this with lethal levels of neonics thats not in a lab. Is that conclusive well hives are made of bees and bees die when exposed but lets study it for a few more years... honesty Im not in a high agriculture area (hay and corn mostly)it limits my hives and limits my exposure. I have talked to many farmers and several that I have talked to feel that the corn they grew forty years ago gave them a better profit than the Bt- round up ready treated corn they are pushed into growing as they older varities are not offered.

    Jim great point. Didn't mean to google up links about studies others said haven't happen or offer a decenting oppinion sometimes I forget what these forums are really for.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    dan, my apologies. i went back and saw how you had "the cause". i misunderstood.

    barry calls this healthy and spirited debate, hopefully we can all learn from it.

    definitely no offense intended, and nothing personal.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #27
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    Jul 2011
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    Mesa County Colorado USA
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    122

    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    I signed it.
    Before a bee stings, it will be sure to let you know that it will hurt them more than it will hurt you.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    Quote Originally Posted by danmcm View Post
    “Neonicotinoid Pesticide Reduces Bumble Bee Colony Growth and Queen Production.” By Penelope R. Whitehorn, Stephanie O’Connor, Felix L. Wackers, Dave Goulson. Science, Vol. 335 No. 6076, March 30, 2012.

    Krupke CH, Hunt GJ, Eitzer BD, Andino G, Given K (2012) Multiple Routes of Pesticide Exposure for Honey Bees Living Near Agricultural Fields. PLoS ONE 7(1): e29268. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0029268

    Andrea Tapparo, Daniele Marton, Chiara Giorio, Alessandro Zanella, Lidia Soldà, Matteo Marzaro, Linda Vivan, Vincenzo Girolami. Assessment of the Environmental Exposure of Honeybees to Particulate Matter Containing Neonicotinoid Insecticides Coming from Corn Coated Seeds. Environmental Science & Technology, 2012; : 120217095058002 DOI: 10.1021/es2035152



    Cam- bee were collected from around hives in Ag areas this with lethal levels of neonics thats not in a lab. Is that conclusive well hives are made of bees and bees die when exposed but lets study it for a few more years... honesty Im not in a high agriculture area (hay and corn mostly)it limits my hives and limits my exposure. I have talked to many farmers and several that I have talked to feel that the corn they grew forty years ago gave them a better profit than the Bt- round up ready treated corn they are pushed into growing as they older varities are not offered.
    Since bumblebees nest in the ground for the most part it makes sense that they would be more exposed to any pesticide than honey bees who only forage on the flowers. Particularly if the corn was planted with air planters and talc dust. Of course with the older spray insecticides they would all die.

    I personally believe there is a small effect on hives from neonics. But it is hard to measure and hives continue to thrive. Better now than in the bad old days of spray and crop dusting.

  9. #29
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    Barrie, Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    As a general note, the response of "Show me the study" implies that said studies exist. When so much research is funded by the large companies themselves, it skews things. Monsanto, Bayer, etc, are unlikely to fund studies that would find their products at fault. Research funded by government and beekeeping groups can't compete. It just isn't a level playing field. Big companies act only in the interests of profitability and their shareholders. "Business ethics" is an oxymoron more often than not.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    This might give you an idea what they find out in Europe

    http://www.gesundebiene.at/wp-conten...de-in-bees.pdf

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Axtmann View Post
    This might give you an idea what they find out in Europe

    http://www.gesundebiene.at/wp-conten...de-in-bees.pdf
    quotes from the above paper that stand out to me:

    During the last years a loss of overwintering bee colonies
    was noticed. Although identification of the causes of this
    disappearance is difficult, it was argued that reduced bee
    health might be initially caused by the chronic exposure to pesticides. So far only two studies have been conducted in this context for neonicotinoids. Using 8 honeybee colonies, Faucon et al. (2005) demonstrated that chronic exposure during the summer season (33 days) to 0.5 and 5.0 lg l-1 imidacloprid in saccharose syrup did not affect the overwintering abilities of honey bees. Similarly, spring assessment of colony development (brood, worker biomass and colony health) was not affected in overwintered colonies
    that had foraged on flowering canola grown from seed
    treated with clothianidin at 0.4 mg kg-1, representing the
    highest recommended rate (Cutler and Scott-Dupree 2007).
    In conclusion, these studies demonstrated no long-term
    effects on honeybee colonies of environmentally relevant
    concentrations.

    In general, the few reported residue levels of neonicotinoids in nectar (average of 2 lg kg-1) and pollen (average of 3 lg kg-1) were below
    the acute and chronic toxicity levels; however, there is a
    lack of reliable data as analyses are performed near the
    detection limit. Similarly, also the levels in bee-collected
    pollen, in bees and bee products were low.

  12. #32
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    Feb 2006
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    quotes from the above paper that stand out to me:

    During the last years a loss of overwintering bee colonies
    was noticed. Although identification of the causes of this
    disappearance is difficult, it was argued that reduced bee
    health might be initially caused by the chronic exposure to pesticides. So far only two studies have been conducted in this context for neonicotinoids. Using 8 honeybee colonies, Faucon et al. (2005) demonstrated that chronic exposure during the summer season (33 days) to 0.5 and 5.0 lg l-1 imidacloprid in saccharose syrup did not affect the overwintering abilities of honey bees. Similarly, spring assessment of colony development (brood, worker biomass and colony health) was not affected in overwintered colonies
    that had foraged on flowering canola grown from seed
    treated with clothianidin at 0.4 mg kg-1, representing the
    highest recommended rate (Cutler and Scott-Dupree 2007).
    In conclusion, these studies demonstrated no long-term
    effects on honeybee colonies of environmentally relevant
    concentrations.

    In general, the few reported residue levels of neonicotinoids in nectar (average of 2 lg kg-1) and pollen (average of 3 lg kg-1) were below
    the acute and chronic toxicity levels; however, there is a
    lack of reliable data as analyses are performed near the
    detection limit. Similarly, also the levels in bee-collected
    pollen, in bees and bee products were low.
    Yeah, a lot of data to absorb there. Layman that I am, my take is that it was a pretty thorough study with no real "smoking gun" type of conclusion.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Yeah, a lot of data to absorb there. Layman that I am, my take is that it was a pretty thorough study with no real "smoking gun" type of conclusion.
    Actually I believe it demonstrated that there is no measurable effect of neonics in "real world" situations. The only time they could find any negative effects was when they fed it to the bees in syrup. Not a real world test. My observations of my hives beside several corn fields shows no problems so far. One of my best yards for honey production.

  14. #34
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    I am really looking forward to the results of the Bayer study that Randy Oliver has reported on. It sounds like a really well thought out trial that reflects how many hundreds of thousands of colonies are currently managed. Allowing Brett Eide as well as Randy to be involved really gives it credibility. No one has more at stake in bee health than the Eide operation. Regardless of what some people may think of them the Bayer's and Monsantos of the world, profit driven though they may be, would much prefer their products to be safe if for no other reason than to minimize the possibility of class action lawsuits against them.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  15. #35
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    May 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    France has been re-thinking the ban for awhile as they saw no noticeable improvement after the ban. What's Monsanto have to do with neo-nics? Monsanto makes one herbicide if you didn't know and does not manufacture any pesticides. Beeologics was a technology aqcuisition and has nothing to do with bees. Sometimes you need to do some digging to get to the real facts and I for one would like to see some well thought out studies done as well, but it seems only people trying to prove what they think is right have been publishing recently and their experimental designs are jokes.

    How long did that study done in 2005 last?

  16. #36
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    Pickaway/Fairfield Cty, OH
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    108

    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    From what I understand of this, the problem so far is that approval was given by the EPA for this chemical to be used in this application, before the appropriate studies were completed. Kinda backwards it seems?! And this stuff persists in the soil for quite some time, so if it turns out to be an unacceptable use, what about all that contaminated soil?

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Petition to suspend neonicotinoids in NJ

    Quote Originally Posted by DBeeCooper View Post
    From what I understand of this, the problem so far is that approval was given by the EPA for this chemical to be used in this application, before the appropriate studies were completed. Kinda backwards it seems?! And this stuff persists in the soil for quite some time, so if it turns out to be an unacceptable use, what about all that contaminated soil?
    Here is an excellent paper on persistence of neonics in soil and water:
    http://www.farmlandbirds.net/sites/d...D-12-00001.pdf

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