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  1. #21
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    old timer, after thinking a bit more about what you said, maybe it is possible that the queen i caught was the original, and had already been chased out. she only had a couple of dozen attendents with her. most of the usurpers were crawling and bearding on the hive.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #22
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    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
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    5,322

    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Beltsville?

  3. #23
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    maybe michael. i call them tomorrow. i saw a documentary about using wing morphology to identify ahb, seems like the lab was at a university somewhere in the southwestern u.s.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #24
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
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    2,360

    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Looks to me to bee a German black queen. Very fiesty and good honey makers. Love that hive stand btw. Did you weld that up yourself?

  5. #25
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    Jan 2003
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    Suffolk, VA
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    2,558

    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Couldn't this also just been a virgin coming back from mating? This is very common since lots of hives will replace queens in the fall. What makes you think it was a usurpation attempt? I've never witnessed such an event. I'm not saying you're wrong, just seems pretty rare to me. Of course I'm outside AHB territory. Have you opened hive 3 to see if there were open queen cells? I hope you're right.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    mark, that's what i thought too, but then i found this:

    http://www.honeybeesuite.com/usurpat...-over-another/

    could it be that some of the genes, and some of the traits, are trickling up this far?
    Well, that's a new one on me. I guess I should read more.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  7. #27
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,775

    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Beltsville?
    Send them to Beltsville and they will send them to Tucson, I believe. That's why you should check w/ your State Apiarist to see for sure where to send them.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  8. #28
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    it was a no brainer something was bad wrong.

    i could hear the commotion all the way across my yard. when i got to the hive, there were many hundreds of bees in the air, and all over the hive, and even bearding. not to mention all the fighting at the entrance and the 100 or so dead bees on the ground.

    my first thought was, robbing! oh s...! and the thought of instant karma came to mind because of all the robbing i talked about in the other thread.

    but i soon realized that it would have more likely been because of me.

    what i mean is i moved this hive to the stand last weekend, from about 100' away.

    it was in a nearby location, which just happened to be where it was caught, by flying into my swarm trap on 042612.

    it was a small swarm, about a half a deep of bees, i gave it a frame of mostly capped brood and that was it.

    without feeding, it was able to fill the deep and one and a half mediums. that top super is 100% drawn and 70% full. the bottom super was added with foundation only, to serve as slatted racks, but there is brood comb now drawn on it extending the brood nest part of the way down on the middle most frames.

    my mistake, (or possible mistake, who knows?), is that instead of waiting until later in the season, i went ahead and moved them last week.

    it was my first time to relocate a hive within my home yard without first taking the hive five miles away to my out yard.

    i followed MB's (micheal bush) advice and used leafy cedar branch tips stapled over the entrance. it worked fine, and no bees were left at the old site.

    but, i realized that i forced a 'colony decision' (per MB) on the bees, by making them reoriente.

    i also realize that the usurpers could have still found and invaded the young colony at the original site, so, we'll never know.

    anyway, i'm thinking robbing, and decide to close them up and move them, when out of the blue, my mentee says, 'hey, look at the pile of bees under the hives".

    hmmm, i says, the only time i see them doing that is when there is a queen.

    so, low and behold, there her majesty was. caught her, and maybe missed out on on letting some rare genetics into my yard but, but i figured i didn't really want them anyway if the traits included usurpation.

    do i do right?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #29
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    update:

    still a little fighting today and some dead bees, but not as many. i guess those usurpers just had no where else to go.

    i think it's like a newspaper combine without the newspaper.

    i found the email i got from beltsville regarding my afb sample i sent earlier this year.

    i sent a new email tonite, with a link to this thread, and asked for advice on how to get the bees tested.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Maybe you already wrote about this, but did you open this hive and look to see how things are inside? What did you see?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Winhall, VT
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    1,066

    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    I was thinking the same thing. A top feeder with an entrance would be something I would not have. Robbing trigger.
    Raising Vermont Bees one mistake at a time.
    USDA Zone 5A

  12. #32
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    mark, yes after i screened off the entrance saturday, and after things settled down a bit, i popped the top.

    there were relatively few bees in the top super, definitely not any robbers there.

    i lifted the top super off and estimated it was half to 3/4 full by weight. things looked calm on the top bars of the deep, which appeared to be full of bees, and no fighting going on there. i then closed it back up.

    ironically, this is the only hive out of 18 that i haven't done a full fall inspection on. i wanted to wait until after i moved it, as to not break the propilis before moving. now, i'll wait a week or so, and make sure i still have a queen.

    keth, this hive has never had a feeder of any kind on it.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    portland, dorset, UK
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    131

    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    While not commenting on this specific incident, I have seen mention of amm taking part in 'usurpation' of other hives in the book 'Reflections on Beekeeping' isbn: 0904846826 by Willie Robson, a long standing commercial guy from the north of England. His reference is to the local/amm bees which his family has been keeping for several decades. I don't have a copy to hand so can't be more specific with regards to his actual comments. Just thought that it was worth a mention in the context of this thread.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    very interesting, thanks rolande!
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #35
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post

    ironically, this is the only hive out of 18 that i haven't done a full fall inspection on. i wanted to wait until after i moved it, as to not break the propilis before moving. now, i'll wait a week or so, and make sure i still have a queen.
    Don't wait. I think you may have some internal problems which can only be determined by an actual look at the brood frames. I certainly wouldn't wait a week.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  16. #36
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    i share your concern mark. i have been seeing regular orientation flights out of this hive in the weeks preceding the usurpation. also, it has been putting on weight as good or better than the other first year colonies. i will wait a week, so i can look for fresh eggs, and know that the queen wasn't killed saturday.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #37
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Okay Best of luck.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  18. #38
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    mark, many thanks, i really do appreciate your input.

    update:

    just went out to take a look and,

    it appears that things are back to normal in terms of no new fighting or no new dead bees.

    i am relieved to some degree, i was worried this might deteriorate into a robbing event (by the stronger hives in my yard).

    my plan is to do a full inspection friday or saturday, to make sure that 1)they still have a queen, and 2)that they are ready for winter. hopefully there won't be any bad surprises.

    oh yeah, on the testing, after an email exhange with beltsville, i was referred to tucson. i have now emailed tucson with pictures and a link to this thread.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
    Posts
    2,558

    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Regarding the pic of the queen in post #2. What is the substance at the tip of the abdomen? Is that a result of you killing her, or could that be a mating sign?

    I have to concur with Mark. I'd get into this hive soon and seen what's going on.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Rutherfordton nc
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    73

    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    I was wandering if i was the only one to see a swarm leave for a week and then they came back lol and tried to get back in the same hive.

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